Thread: Kitchen knives have become butter knives...

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I'm constantly surprised at how many people have kitchen knives that have NEVER been sharpened. I've seen people using knives that were more blunt than my thumbnail. And I think a lot of manufacturers know that we're a society of "sharpening impaired" people because they seem to be aware that no matter how crappy their knives are, as long as they've got a serrated edge that will saw with enough elbow grease, most people won't know that they've got a blunt piece of steel posing as a knife instead of a real knife.

Reminds me of my mother. She used a bread knife (yep, a bread knife with a serrated edge) to cut everything for cooking when I was little. I can't even remember a straight edged kitchen knife being used. Then I got a job in a "sausage factory" and learned about sharpening knives. And when I showed her how to sharpen her straight edged kitchen knives, she bought a sharpening iron herself, and now she uses sharp knives instead of knives with serrated edges.

Originally Posted by Ray C

...Has anyone else noticed that when your foray into straight razors began, it seemed that all your kitchen knives became nothing more than blunt objects?

Like a few others here, my experience goes just the opposite. I've been sharpening things since I was 10 years old. Started with my Boy Scout folder and a junk composit stone. I sharpen pocket knives, fixed blade knives, kitchen knives, axes, machetes, lawn mower blades, .... and now razors.

For most knives I agree 100% that the Spyderco Sharpmaker gives me consistently great results. (as an aside, the Spyderco Yin/Yang kitchen knives are awesome and well worth checking out if you spend much time in the kitchen like I do!)

Razors, knives and mower blades each have very different requirements for what makes a great edge and each steel has it's own set of benefits and requirements. Understanding the requirements of the things you are sharpening is critical to being able to do it right. For me, I'm excellent at attaining a great edge on my knives. I do allright with the mower and razors are coming along (not there yet, by any means).

One of the common (to me, anyway) misunderstandings I see is the perception that hardness is the defining factor of a steel - ie hard steel is more difficult to sharpen but holds an edge longer where carbon steel is softer but easier to sharpen. To me, it's more important to understand WHY something is beginning to feel dull. The biggest thing seems to be, is the edge worn, chipped (on a grain level, not big visable chips) or deformed? All steels will exhibit all three of these but, in general, I find stainless steels chip where carbon steels deform. Therefore (again, very generally) my stainless blades get sharpened (edge forward with metal removal) where my carbon blades tend to do better with stropping (to simply realign the deformed edge). A daily example of this, for me, is my Spyderco knives, which are mostly stainless, get sharpened on the Sharpmaker where my carbon steel Busses get stropped on fine (800-->2000) sandpaper. With regards to razors, it's why I've stayed with carbon steels as I believe the value of stropping them daily will generally yield better results.

Regardless, I don't perceive any of these things to be dull compared to my razors. Their edges are just different. They each do what they were intended to very well. If they don't, they get some attention.

Just my 2 cents...

Ken

It is true that many people make a simple rule of thumb that the harder the steel, the better it will take and hold an edge and this really isn't too far from reality. It's a pretty good rule of thumb, actually, but in reality it's not that straightforward.

Why blades go dull is because of several things, all of which affect the edge geometry. Chipping, bending, ductile deformation (flattening) and erosion are the forces at work.

Very hard steel is generally the most brittle and, as a result is also the most prone to chipping but the least prone to flattening or bending.

Very soft steel is the least prone to chipping but the most prone to bending and deforming.

Stainless steels are the most ductile and so are prone to both ductile deformation and bending but are resistant to chipping and highly resistant to chemical erosion.

The more ductile the steel (the most highly alloyed tend to be the most ductile), the harder they are to sharpen because they don't want to grind cleanly. Think of it as trying to sharpen a blade made of clay. It just wants to "smear" instead of grind off clean. This is why stainless steel often gets the reputaiton of being hard to sharpen - because it IS hard to sharpen. But that doesn't mean it's harder steel or better at edge holding. The fact that it's very resistant to chemical erosion has somethign to do with stainless steel's ability to hold an edge over time, but good care of carbon steel minimizes any differences there.

Most kitchen knives are 440a or 440b steel. They're easy to manufacture and stamp. they require very little care in order to avoid rusting. And they make blades that are on the very low end of what I would consider a useful blade.
Since most casual users in a kitchen don't know what a sharp knife is - or how a sharp knife should take and hold an edge, they're none the wiser, anyway, so more expensive steels and better heat treatments don't afford the selling benefits of low cost production and low priced products. The manufacturers have given us what we, as consumers, want. Truly good kitchen knives are specialty items. While you can get a "set" of kitchen knives most anywhere for 20 or 25 dollars, you'll pay many times that for one truly high quality knife.

I keep it simple - I generally use my 1k Norton or a 1K Japanese stone for my knives.

For knives I will use for delicate work I will go to my 4K Norton or Japanese stone.

For fine tuning, I use a ceramic "steel" that I got from Ikea for about $15 - its white ceramic and I suspect its between 6K and 8K.

Unlike a metal steel or burnishing rod, a ceramic or diamond sharpener will remove very small amount metal.

While most of my knives are stainless - nothing fancy, just some good industrial Henckles (slightly better/heavier than the Forschner knives) and the Lee Valley carbon steel French peasant's knife, which is a great buy in a good all-purpose carbon steel knife.

Just like razors, once you have your knives tuned, all it takes is a small amount of routine maintenance and care (ie. no dishwasher, clean and dry right away, etc.) to keep the tomato-slicing sharp.

I agree with PapaBull's post about most mass-produced knives being junk.

However, you don't have to spend a fortune on high-end German or Japanese steel to get a good knife. In this regard, the Forschner and Henckles industrial knifes are great values (yes, they're stamped vs. forged, but they're very popular with chefs and I don't think there's a bit of difference except for forged knives being heavier). Another option is MAC knives, which are priced right and also get consistenly high reviews from chefs.

This is turning into an interesting thread

I don't want to give the impression that softer steel is bad, just not what I want any longer, or useless. Softer steel knives are great for those that don't demand top notch performance from their knives. My mom is one of those that is happy with the serrated steak knife from wally world, she's banned me from sharpening any of her knives... As you get more interested in knife skills and different cuts you find that you need to take your knives more seriously.

You can make most every cut you need to with cheaper knives, it will take more work to keep them sharp and polished, but they will get the job done. Better knives just makes the work easier, most of the time

I went through 2 years of culinary school with a cheap chef knife that had two slight bends in the spine. I was able to make all the cuts needed to do my job. Granted I needed to keep ontop of the edge and how the spine acted.

Now I have settled on Hiromoto AS knives and love them.

Understanding your tools is the most important thing. By understanding what your knives can and will do, and how, you will be able to get the job done one way or another.

If you have quality knives, and don't want to hit the stones yourself, send them off to Dave... http://www.drsharpening.com/
He's very well respected, the Lynn of Kitchen Knives

Originally Posted by UnConundrum

If you have quality knives, and don't want to hit the stones yourself, send them off to Dave... http://www.drsharpening.com/
He's very well respected, the Lynn of Kitchen Knives

Ditto on that, Dave has lots of experience and testamonials (sp). If I didn't do my own stuff I'd send it all to Dave as well.

Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

I'm a free hand sharpener, just like with razors, and have picked up tricks from many sources. There are contraptions out there that will clamp to the blade and give you an exact angle for sharpening, edge pro comes to mind. Some people love them, I'm not one of them to me they de-skill you on how to sharpen properly.

Murray Carter made a DVD on basic sharpening ans advanced sharpening. I'm about to get his advanced DVD as soon as I remember to buy it It would cure just about any sleeping issues you may have but the info is priceless. I just hope his video apperience skills have gotten better for the second DVD

I got the advanced sharpening DVD from murray carter after reading this post and I highly recommend it. I agree with DC and Murray Carter that all these new devices, angles, or sending your knives off to be sharpened de-skills you. I think this is important for the same reason I think learning to hone your own straight is important. It gives you a sense of accomplishment and a connection to your tools. Again, this DVD is frickin great

I just sharpened our kitchen knives today. Something I do too infrequently.
We have old Chicago Cutlery knives. I've used them for years after purchasing one of their fillet knives, and have never looked back. They are not fancy, and many may look down on them, but they seem to be good carbon steel and will take an edge. I use a Norton 4/8K. But you will have to lap the Norton after using it to sharpen kitchen knives. The stone and lapping stone are sitting outside to dry out now.
Sharpening knives is way different than sharpening razors. You have to find the bevel and follow it on a knife.

Don't forget that stropping is very different too. You want no give in the leather, so a belt is out. You also usually charge the leather.