Thread: A Unified Theory of Honing and Stropping?

I don't know whether or not this is correct, but I have a suspicion that some of what people say they feel while stropping is like what dowsers feel when they want to believe they are nearing their goal. Placebo effect / power of belief / etc. I also find it hard to believe that physically observable sharpness can be compared to effective sharpness for cutting hair on one's face. However I would be delighted to be found wrong on these points, as it would magnify the mystique of straight razor sharpness for me!

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I don't know whether or not this is correct, but I have a suspicion that some of what people say they feel while stropping is like what dowsers feel when they want to believe they are nearing their goal. Placebo effect / power of belief / etc. I also find it hard to believe that physically observable sharpness can be compared to effective sharpness for cutting hair on one's face. However I would be delighted to be found wrong on these points, as it would magnify the mystique of straight razor sharpness for me!

I buy that, size of bevel, and of spine has a bigger effect on draw IMHO. I have razors that give little/lots of draw regardless of shave readyness...

Here's something I have noticed over time: the sound of the razor as I strop it is different from shave ready to not shave ready razors. Kind of a sizzle, if that makes sense. Regardless of the grind, I can hear when the razor is getting close to shave ready.

It may be psychosomatic, but that just means my subconscious knows when a razor is about ready, even if I'm not sure yet. Either way it works for me.

Mparker, your point depends which photo you are talking about. The one in the top right corner is not indicative of a good razor edge. I intended to use the bottom two as examples (I posted this pic in a different thread and clarified which pic was which then, but forgot to do so this time). The bottom two show the slight misalignment and bending that can occur with use, and it's those small irregularities that I was referring to not the obvious burrs in the top photos.

As for my stropping comment, is it incorrect to say that it is a matter of friction? It seems to me that as the edge is straightened the friction would be increased slightly (not to mention the strop heats up a bit which adds to the draw).

And it's not too far of a stretch to compare knives and chisels to razors edges if they've been honed to the same degree. I've been honing knives longer than honing razors and I can say that it pretty much boils down to the interaction of steel and the abrasive surface, no magical difference because you label one of them a "razor".

I think what matters is that we can all take dull steel, d*$& around with it, and end up with a tool that pops hairs in half while gliding like a feather over skin. So, cheers! I've got some sharpnin' to do.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

And it's not too far of a stretch to compare knives and chisels to razors edges if they've been honed to the same degree.

Not a far stretch, yet still a stretch. Can one shave with a chisel, or a knife, with the same results as a properly honed and stropped straight razor?

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I've been honing knives longer than honing razors and I can say that it pretty much boils down to the interaction of steel and the abrasive surface, no magical difference because you label one of them a "razor".

No difference in the metal composition or the forging of a straight razor that might affect the honing results?

What I'm asking is, are they really all the same, just different shapes? Or is there something other than shape that makes a straight razor a straight razor?

Scott

I'd have to agree that there is no important difference with the big exception that the bevel angle of a razor is very small and that of a chisel is much bigger. If we ever start using chisels with a scything motion I'll be really worried.

But, if we were to sharpen a chisel with the express purpose of shaving with it (or just cutting a hair), would we do it differently?

I'm much more worried that Scott's or MParker's razors are different than my razors. That would be a much more important issue to me.

I think it makes more sense to focus on the unexplained and the explainable phenomenon, agree on that, and go from there.

For example:

You have the guy that doesn't even believe in strop draw, or,

Back to the corn field example, I think razors shave because the corn field is serrated on the edge by the grit of the stone, but only because it "catches" whiskers a little in the groove, which may explain why "fewer strokes are better". With too many strokes per grit you smooth out the bevel edge too much.

But until you experience the lack of shaving ability from too many strokes on a hone (or agree that the characteristic is true) you might not see the concept or idea at all.

We could debate the presence of striations for a long time before we ever get around to accepting that the effect is more important than whether they exist or not.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that striations are only visible at 5K magnification and suddenly we "see" all these striations. How do we ever figure out that they are cutting better or worse? Without interviewing the effected whisker after the crime.

Until they invent a hone without grit we have to focus on experiments that study the expected characteristics.

For example, a few years ago I worked with someone that used a sweeping motion while honing and, although he was getting a good edge, got a better shaving edge when he used a simpler more linear stroke. I thought this helped because it aligned the "striations". Now I think it helped because it created "fewer" striations.

I can agree that striations exist on the bevel, I think what we are questioning is the age old assumption that they make a difference and to what extent they make a difference.

And, to the question I have, how can we create a logical experiment that would prove of disprove our theories?

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

And, to the question I have, how can we create a logical experiment that would prove of disprove our theories?

High-powered slow-motion magnified video of different razors shaving the same beard at the same level of beard growth. There must also accompany these videos more high-powered slow-motion magnified videos of the stropping and honing of these razors at each grit level and on each strop.

The trouble to do this and sift through the resulting data will relegate the veracity of our theories to the jurisdiction of educated guesses

Any, perhaps, slightly simpler solutions?

Sorry, I'm slightly confused regarding what exact theories we'd like to test. That the depth, amount and orientation of striations on the bevel affect the shaveability of a razor? Or are you referring to Scott's original theories regarding stropping and its effects?

James.

I think we are trying to define a definitive theory of both honing and stropping. We've actually gone quite far. The last time I tried to do this I couldn't even get everyone to buy into the idea that honing was an edge leading motion.

Originally Posted by honedright

Not a far stretch, yet still a stretch. Can one shave with a chisel, or a knife, with the same results as a properly honed and stropped straight razor?

If it has the same bevel angle and temper, yes.

Originally Posted by honedright

No difference in the metal composition or the forging of a straight razor that might affect the honing results?

What I'm asking is, are they really all the same, just different shapes? Or is there something other than shape that makes a straight razor a straight razor?

Scott

The steels that the custom razor makers are using have been in use in the custom knife industry for many years, and are now being adapted to the straight razor market.

In fact, anyone can go out to a junk yard and purchase a rusty old leaf spring, clean it up, grind a 15 to 17 degree angle on the end of it, heat it until it demagnetizes then dunk it in water. The result will be a hardened steel blade that, when honed and stropped properly, will shave hair. (cut the leaf spring down a bit if you are going to try this)

I too have lost track of what is in question. Maybe a short list is in order.