Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    158
    Thanked: 1

    Default Is there a metalurgist in the house?

    I know this is a very strange thread but I'm very interested to know what the properties are that make a good razor in steel. Commonly you hear "high carbon" and "stainless" thrown about haphazardly but without any real substance beyond that sliver of information. Now I understand that this sort of information is really important to your average user but it DOES interest some of us. Say for example you had a damascus razor made from 1084 and 15n20 would that be a good razor? What about L6 01 and pure nickel?

  2. #2
    Knife & Razor Maker Joe Chandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    1,849
    Thanked: 50

    Default

    Go to Bladeforums, and look up an article by Joe Talmadge. Your question is really too broad. Lots of steels will make good razors, but generally, you want the simplest steel because they have the finest grain structure, hence, a finer edge. The steels you mentioned, and the combinations thereof, should make good razors, and good damascus as well. Maybe not the L6, because its as-quenched hardness is around 59-60, and most razors I see are tempered to around 63Rc. Nickel makes a steel much tougher. Combinations of steel, or even a great steel by itself, is only about 1/10th the total picture. How the steel is manipulated, and the heat treatment it is given, are far better predictors of performance that just the steel type.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    158
    Thanked: 1

    Default

    Would you believe I'm an active member of BF with threads running on the same track as this one?

    In fact Del Ealy is my supplier for the aforementioned steel. But much thanks for the thoughtful suggestion. I'm glad BF gets some rounds here as well I just figured somebody on a razor-centric forum might already have that info...didn't actually think about askng the makers themselves. Talk about a dumbass

  4. #4
    Knife & Razor Maker Joe Chandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    1,849
    Thanked: 50

    Default

    Dumbass? Not at all. Believe me, I've asked way dumber questions. I would think 52100, treated right, would make an outstanding razor, along with O1. I think most manufacturers use some form of 1084-1095 for most of their non-stainless razors, but that's just a guess. I'd love to see a ZDP189 razor, but probably never will. If there was one, I'd guess it'd be over 1000 dollars, simply because of how hard it is to work.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    158
    Thanked: 1

    Default

    Well...I've got my price for the stock now much thanks to Mr Ealy I'm one step farther along in my project. Next step is waiting on a reply from my knife maker connection who I hope to grind some blades for me from Mr Ealy's steel. The cost of the steel is within my grasp I just need to know what the heat treating and grinding is going to set me back. Once I have THAT price in my pocket I'll probably start saving towards it if I think I can swing it. I was considering Devin Thomas but his stuff is in such high demand that it doubled the price of the steel to order from him instead of a smaller forge. I may still pick up a bit of mokume for an accent on the brush handle though.

    I had contacted a grinder for this already but he quoted me almost $1800 for the grinding which is well beyond the limits of my funding so I'm pursuing other avenues. If everything comes in looking doable I'm going to have to work every single off duty assignment I can lay hands on this year.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Korndog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    thousand oaks, CA, USA
    Posts
    714
    Thanked: 5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawker
    Well...I've got my price for the stock now much thanks to Mr Ealy I'm one step farther along in my project. Next step is waiting on a reply from my knife maker connection who I hope to grind some blades for me from Mr Ealy's steel. The cost of the steel is within my grasp I just need to know what the heat treating and grinding is going to set me back. Once I have THAT price in my pocket I'll probably start saving towards it if I think I can swing it. I was considering Devin Thomas but his stuff is in such high demand that it doubled the price of the steel to order from him instead of a smaller forge. I may still pick up a bit of mokume for an accent on the brush handle though.
    I had contacted a grinder for this already but he quoted me almost $1800 for the grinding which is well beyond the limits of my funding so I'm pursuing other avenues. If everything comes in looking doable I'm going to have to work every single off duty assignment I can lay hands on this year.
    I'm working on a similar project with Hitachi white #1 fro a well known maker. Should have them by summer.

  7. #7
      Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    8,454
    Thanked: 4942
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    This is awesome. Can any of you explain to me Takeda's approach to damascus with forging high carbon in between or the difference when he does a soft carbon and hard carbon blade? The Maestro has some blanks coming and in each case I understand there is three layers being forged together for a particular effect. Don't understand the technical aspects, but love trying to. Thanks. Lynn

  8. #8
    Knife & Razor Maker Joe Chandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    1,849
    Thanked: 50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adjustme69
    This is awesome. Can any of you explain to me Takeda's approach to damascus with forging high carbon in between or the difference when he does a soft carbon and hard carbon blade? The Maestro has some blanks coming and in each case I understand there is three layers being forged together for a particular effect. Don't understand the technical aspects, but love trying to. Thanks. Lynn

    Sounds like you're talking about San Mai (three layer in Japanese) construction, which is fairly common in Japanese cutlery, and extremely common in Scandinavian cutlery, and becoming more common here. Spyderco made a knife with a ZDP189 core and 420J2 sides. The ZDP189 by itself would be nearly impossible to work by hand, but with layering, you can have a super thin center (not much thicker than the cutting edge itself), which does the cutting, with softer sides to allow easy machining. It allows you to have an extremely hard center (67Rc for ZDP), while having the added toughness and flexibility of the softer sides. They can be ground extremely thin and sharp. In production, the hard center would be heated to welding temperature, fluxed, and welded together with the soft sides in a press. Another advantage of this type of construction is that you can use some extemely high contrast materials (like pure nickel and say, wrought iron) in a damascus pattern-welded steel which wouldn't be hard enough to make a decent knife, but which make a beautiful layer over the harder center of suitable cutlery steel. I'm not sure if this is the info you were asking for, but it's about all I know concerning the actual construction.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Korndog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    thousand oaks, CA, USA
    Posts
    714
    Thanked: 5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Chandler
    Sounds like you're talking about San Mai (three layer in Japanese) construction, which is fairly common in Japanese cutlery, and extremely common in Scandinavian cutlery, and becoming more common here. Spyderco made a knife with a ZDP189 core and 420J2 sides. The ZDP189 by itself would be nearly impossible to work by hand, but with layering, you can have a super thin center (not much thicker than the cutting edge itself), which does the cutting, with softer sides to allow easy machining.
    Right; Honyaki construction is the forging of the hard steel into a sword or knife. It's a very painstaking process with many heats and quenches. The failure rate is high during forging and so is the price. Other types of construction have many different names depending on the type of instrument. soft (Gigane) iron might be laminated to just one side of a traditional single bevel knife. The Kasumi line where the steels meet is a beautiful wavy expression. Also, in Warikomi construction, the carbon core is sandwiched between stainless steel.

  10. #10
      Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    8,454
    Thanked: 4942
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    You guys are killer!!!!! I have one of the AS three layers of carbon coming in a mammoth ivory crust. Can't wait to test it out. I think the Maestro is supposed to get a few more in in each of the three materials soon. This is soooooo cooool. Old guys love to learn to......lol. Lynn

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •