Thread: Some rambling thoughts...

To quote TO "Get ya' popcorn ready" cause this is a long rambling post...

So, I've been a member here (and other shave related forums) since Jan. '09. This was either my first or second forum (can't remember the exact order but I think it's second), and I've always enjoyed reading about and sharing experiences related to this little hobby.

When I first joined here, I posted very rarely, read a lot, and started working on gaining experience and relevant knowledge rather than simply regurgitating what I'd seen written by others. That's just what I did naturally, and it's surprising how few guys take that approach. Only after getting past "book learning" stages and into real world success did I feel ready to share suggestions, advice, etc. with others... Just a thought...

On the other hand, I really don't understand how some guys seem to think that a person has to have experience with ebvery possible hone or permutation of hones/razors/strops/soaps/creams/blah/blah/blah to have a valid opinion. This isn't to single anyone out, and I don't even have anyone in mind, but I don't understand it when I see it. If Lynn tells me that Naniwas are good, you're never going to convince me that it's a bad move for me to offer them as a suggestion to people who are looking for hones. I haven't moved razor one across a Naniwa, but too many guys tell me they are good for me to shrink in the background when they are being discussed (of course, I'll not offer specifics about their performance, though).

Another rambling thought... Honemeisters' edges sometimes can use some improvement. So what, most of the time they'll shave, and if not they'll always be happy to work on it again. They'll even be happy to work on it again if you just don't know how to use the razor and return a perfectly serviceable razor to them for work. I've had one case where a razor came back and it didn't shave (and it wasn't just my technique), but I didn't say anything and just worked on it myself. I've also gotten razors from others to hone (at no time should you confuse this with me saying "I'm better than XYZ" because me sitting down and working on one razor until it works isn't the same as going through a session of honing 10 razors and getting a 90% or 100% success rate). No big deal... Please don't post "Screwed by Honemeister" threads because they are counterproductive, and show that you've most likely not tried to communicate with them. Some simple math will tell you that they aren't doing this service to get rich. Say a guy hones 10 razors a day, taking weekends off, they are only bringing in $52k a year on that (260 days X 10 razors a day X $20 per razor). While that's nothing to sneeze at, that's a pretty hefty load for someone doing it as a second source of income, and it's not a substantial living for someone who's using it as a primary source of income...

Something else... Just because a product is being hyped too much, doesn't mean we need to try to actively marginalize it. My pet peeve is the praise Tabac gets. I've tried a ridiculous amount of soaps and creams (buying into the gotta try it all to be relevant opinion at one time), and Tabac truly does rate about in the middle of what I've tried in my experience... I do express that opinion, but when guys talk about it as being the best of all products in wet-shavedom, I try to ignore it... The same things happen with hones and razors and brushes and blah blah blah. The most recent example that I'm seeing is a bunch of posts about coticules being really hit or miss when it comes to finishing razors. I think that's innaccurate, but don't deny that a) they are very different and require different techniques from stone to stone making them seem more difficult and b) they aren't the "best" for many according to their preferences. However, I reject the idea that only 2 or 4 out of 100 (or more) are capable of finishing razors. My friend Jimmy has had 20 and all work (some better than others, but are good). I've had 5 and they've all been excellent (I'm talking only recently mined ones, maybe vintage ones are out there that suck )... I just don't get the need of some to bash products that either they don't like or didn't take the time to learn or whatever... Guys who hone a ton of razors, I understand not wanting something that takes an individualized approach for each razor and each honing session, but that doesn't mean that synthetics are definitively THE way to go...

That brings me to this thought. The only thing that's absolute in this game is the fact that there ARE NO absolutes. When someone says something that works for some is "wrong" because it doesn't look like what they do or read or whatever, they loose credibility to me. I don't need someone on the internet correcting my stropping, honing, shaving technique from across the country when I know good and well that it works great and has been giving me excellent results for all this time...

Another thought back to hones... When talking about hones with Glen or Lynn or some of these guys that hone a bunch, like thousands of razors per year... I don't need the same kind of set up for my measly honing needs that they do. They are going from dull to shave ready by the fastest means possible and that's what they need. This is like a farmer with 5 acres talking about tractor needs with somone who has a 5000 acre farm... While what the farmer who has the most land is absolutely right in saying the best tractor for his needs is the huge beast, that doesn't mean it makes sense for the guy with the 5 acre farm to drop $100K plus on a tractor... Here with razors, you can get all the hone(s) you need for the rest of your life (most likely) for less than $100. Buying several thousands of dollars worth of hones is fine if that's what you want to do. But, you don't have to have a rare Japanese natural stone, or an 8X3 coticule, or the full set of Shaptons, etc.... I have all of those, and I've found that I prefer my little bout Coticule for most of what I do. I use a 1K Shapton if I have any major work to do, then I go to it... But, more importantly, there REALLY isn't that much difference in all of these things to justify spending 5 figures on shaving gear to "experience" it all. There really isn't, and yes, I've spent well over 5 figures on all this junk since starting...

The best thing to do, IMHO, is find a setup that works for not too much money, and learn it really well. By the time you really learn what you're doing, you'll be much more educated about what you might want try next. Don't go out and buy a bunch of stuff before you learn what the deuce you're doing... it's just not smart.

For the record, I didn't have a "mentor" when I started, and I have often said that I wish I had me to guide me when I got started... My brother has spent an embarrassingly small percentage of what I have on this junk, and his kit is great. My stuff is nicer, but he is enjoying a great shave, has great great razors and some really nice software... He didn't have to learn all the expensive lessons I did... That brings me to this point: see the guys with the blue "mentor" tags? They are here to help. If you are smart, you'll latch on to one (preferrably near you so you can get 1 on 1 help) and befriend them, and let them help you get a good start.

Well... those are some rambling thoughts, and I'm quite certain they read as being as incoherent as they felt, but I just wanted to put it down for others to read... I hope someone finds it at least interesting

Originally Posted by richmondesi

There really isn't, and yes, I've spent well over 5 figures on all this junk since starting...

But think of how much you've saved on cartridges for the Gillette. You made some really good points Paul. I particularly liked the tractor analogy. It took me awhile to figure out that the approach Lynn or Glen take is different because of the amount of razors they are honing compared to what I do. I do my own for fun and have never honed more than two in a session and usually one.

Some guys , like your brother from the way you describe him, are only looking for a good shave, while others, like you and me, get into the sport of honing and straight razor shaving. It is reminiscent of friends of mine who are into bass fishing on a tournament level. It is all consuming and a passion. Some of us get the ADs in one area, and some in another.

I got it in hones and blades to practice with while friends of mine are ate up with creams, soaps and scents. Those things are of little interest to me and most of those I have were given to me by a friend who moved from my area to Fairbanks, Alaska last year. I try to follow Lynn's repeated admonition to "have fun" and so far so good. I haven't tired of it yet and in the going on three years into it I am surprised to find that I am still learning in honing and especially in shaving technique.

I would have never thought that something I looked upon as a disagreeable chore in past years would become a hobby that I like better than just about anything else in life. Thanks for the random thoughts , started my day off right.

Not very rambling at all Paul very to the point...


I especially like this part...

"The best thing to do, IMHO, is find a setup that works for not too much money, and learn it really well. By the time you really learn what you're doing, you'll be much more educated about what you might want try next. Don't go out and buy a bunch of stuff before you learn what the deuce you're doing... it's just not smart."


Anybody just entering this hobby should read it once a month for the next 6 months..


Edit: One thing both you guys forgot though when talking about Lynn and Myself along with others out there that do hone, say more than 5 razors a day consistantly... We also have our own personal razors that we hone one at a time, with care and attention to getting the BESTEST edge possible, then if it works consistently we move that idea into our other honing regime.... essentially we boil down the process to the best we have found.... What you guys don't hear about are all the ideas that didn't work

Too take that to the Tractor anology if I know that one type of Box Scraper smooths the road better every time I use it on my 20 miles of road, I am at least going to tell you about that brand for your 1 mile of road... (can you tell what I use my Tractor for) LMAO

Love it!!

Turning the chore into pleasure is the bottom line. Finding what works best for you is the bottom line. Having a great resource to learn from and people who care enough to teach you is the bottom line. Speaking from experience is the bottom line and...........

HAVING FUN IS THE BOTTOM Line!

We have come a long way from when there was no information available to us, to a point where people have an amazing amount of choices for all budgets, whether just for daily shaving, hobbyist or professional. Long live this sport.......

I am grateful every day to have had the opportunity to hone so many razors and try so many stones, brushes, soaps, strops and on and on. I am grateful to those who taught me and for those who have learned from what I have learned. I enjoy being able to test a new stone or technique on a hundred or two hundred razors before giving an opinion on it. For me, it gives me a sound basis for expressing my opinions. That still doesn't mean it will be the same for everyone. We have accumulated so much information that I truly believe there is something here for everyone to make life just a little nicer.

Please leave the popularity contests, agendas and need to be recognized at the door.

If all this were gone tomorrow, I will still be shaving with my straight razor every day and loving it.

Lynn

An interesting take away for me from this thread is that the guys with the most experience with this stuff are the least dogmatic about it. While they certainly have opinions (opinions based upon their vast experience) they aren't overly attached to their opinions in away that could interfere with their enjoyment of this pursuit. I think that is pretty cool.

I posted this, and left for a gigantic flea market (guess what I'm looking for )

I'm checking in from my phone while my wife drives, and wanted to say Thanks for responses.

Couple of things:

Jimmy, my brother is actually getting into the sport of it too. He's done several restorations and having an absolute blast!

Glen, you made a great point about your personal razors. However, everyone reading this and other threads need to keep in mind what you and Lynn are constantly saying: Even though that's the type of edge you guys prefer, it isn't necessarily what others will. Yours or Lynn's or any other person's preference (especially mine ) don't really have any bearing on the preferences of others... They are simply what we prefer after lots of experimentation. Back to the tractor analogy, you're right on with the scraper (in fact, I said big farmer was absolutely right about his recommendations), but I think (especially) new guys would be much better served with discussions about the cheap bit of kit that will get them to greatness... I'm pretty sure we're on the same page there from our discussions

Lynn, you nailed, Bro. If I never read another post or shared another thing online, I'd still use my kit, enjoy my little hobby, and have a ball... The guys who aren't out to make a name for themselves (in time) are the ones who will earn a quality reputation. I'm no where near the point that I don't have anything to learn, but I have enough knowledge that I would be able to continue to experiment and continue to learn forever without these fora... I'm of the disposition that I wouldn't show up to the boards at all if it weren't for the opportunity to do what I can to help other guys get what they want out of the game. It's what's fun. I'm over the "excitement" and novelty of using a straight, but helping others become proficient is still fun, and I doubt that will change.

That's a lot to type from a BlackBerry

Have fun, is right

Forums in general are a very funny thing. People in forums like to pose questions, receive answers, tell people what they think and tell people what they know.

Sometimes we come to learn, sometimes we come to be contentious, sometimes we come to praise. In the final analysis, this is truly like a family. With some sagelike paternalistic leaders. The brother-in-law everyone wishes would not show up to Thanksgiving dinner. The children that learn kindness and generosity to the kids in the neighborhood. And, all of the disfunctions characteristic of people gathered together to live under the same roof.

Finally, I would like to say this. I take anyone's perspectives in an answer to a question to be an opinion only, unless it contains emperical data surrounding the response. For instance, when Alraz says something about the chemical nature of a cream, or when Lynn states that there is science to back up honing with pyramids, or Glen states the polishing capabilities of a given buffing compound, then I take that as factual information that transcends who is speaking. Anything else I take to mean "this is what works for me, and it may or may not work for you".

Edit - It appears that I was just giving my opinion and wishing people to take it as fact. : )

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Glen, you made a great point about your personal razors. However, everyone reading this and other threads need to keep in mind what you and Lynn are constantly saying: Even though that's the type of edge you guys prefer, it isn't necessarily what others will. Yours or Lynn's or any other person's preference (especially mine ) don't really have any bearing on the preferences of others... They are simply what we prefer after lots of experimentation. Back to the tractor analogy, you're right on with the scraper (in fact, I said big farmer was absolutely right about his recommendations), but I think (especially) new guys would be much better served with discussions about the cheap bit of kit that will get them to greatness... I'm pretty sure we're on the same page there from our discussions

I think the word you are missing in my point is, consistency,,

In fact, that word side tracks most every discussion on honing because we get lost in the last 20 strokes of what is the best "Finisher".... More typing on all the shaving forums is dedicated to the last finishing strokes, when that is the easiest part of honing...
Basically anyone can do the finishing, at least anyone with a lick of sense...

Back about 3 years ago on this forum some very smart fellows proved this point quite effectively by offering bevel sets to new honers...
They set the bevel, then sent the razor back to the owner... Amazingly it was a near 100% success rate for shaving edges...
But we choose to talk/discuss/argue the finishers, because that is what is cool...
I mean really where is the fun in discussing 1k stones they are just not all that sexy...

The real difference in honing is the grunt work, this is where consistency rules, this is where the "Discussions" occur about honing systems...

I think is what gets me going the most, when somebody asks for help, very, very, few will take the time explaining the under 8k process but every "Expert" out there will explain the wonders of their favorite finishing stone...

Lazarus/Mitch can really appreciate what I mean here, because he was at the Denver meet and watched me switch between finishing hones on almost every razor I did, that is the personal part of honing, and what the most typing is about... It is also very, very, easy for us to do, because the razor is at a shave ready condition before it gets too "Whatever" finisher I/You want to chose.... Those guys watched every single razor no matter the starting point, always get to shaving sharp, then I would say "What Finisher"???

I my eyes, whenever somebody claims any stone to be superior to another as a finisher, all I see is inexperience... as you already stated that is personal opinion only..
Have you ever noticed that most people with a ton of honing under their belt will say something more in the words of "I get more consistent results from X hone" not "I like this hone because it is the best"

But, when I hear that one "Sharpening" system is better, then my ears perk up, because I might learn something new...
I remember when the Unicot and Dulicot methods started, I was really paying attention at that point, because it was potentially another new "sharpening" system that I could use..
But no, it was not as consistent as what I already used for the grunt work, so I automatically dismissed it as yet another arrow in my quiver, same as the Pyramid, same as some older bevel setting techniques I used, before Lynn's 20 circles... These are not "bad" systems they are just not as consistent... I had honed a few thousand razors before the 20 circles technique, but quickly realized that it was a more consistent bevel setting method, so I adopted it into my routine...
I even remember when progressive honing was the "new fangled system" and the old pyramid devotees hated it...
These other "arrows" can be kept in your quiver of honing knowledge and pulled out as needed...Heck, I still use the Pyramid on occasion, and it still has it's place in honing...

So in conclusion yes when somebody asks what is the "Best", I automatically give them, what I have found after much honing/testing, to be the most "Consistent" sharpening system that I have found to that date, to hopefully get them on the road to shaving success... Then after they learn to hone a razor to shaving sharp, they can decide how to "finish" it themselves...
So yes I tell them without a doubt that Synthetics work better, and that if they want to start, and save money (your qualifier not mine), to buy a Norton starter kit for $120 and build from there, because in my experience, to this date, that is the most "Consistent" method of attaining a shave ready razor from a dull start, and therefore the most likely for a Newb to succeed... and start having fun....

My analogy:

"Squeeze the trigger, don't jerk it"...Now we all have heard that, but it doesn't mean that you won't get some hits by jerking the trigger, it just means that over the next 1000 shots you will hit more by squeezing it...

I didn't miss that point at all, Glen. In fact, I kinda made it too in referencing professional honers. What I'm saying is that it's not as critical for the average person as it is for you or others. Besides that, Shaptons or any of the most "consistent" stones in the world won't work for someone with a a stroke that's not capable. My main point concerning that is that the normal person doesn't need a lot of the stuff that people recommend to them... Shaptons from 1k up to 30' isn't going to be much easier/better than the Norton set and chromox, but the price is significantly steeper... The squeeze the trigger bit is excellent, but it deals more with the approach, not the gear... Competitive shooters will benefit a lot more from expensive specialized gear than we will, but we all need to work on squeezing the trigger instead of jerking it

Guys come at this thing for different reasons. Some guys just want to have a razor or two and shave and keep it sharp, some want to collect and restore, some want to start a business out of this,some get into it from a collecting standpoint and have hardware which might look like overkill to many but the acquisition is the thrill and of course some are part one and part the other and everywhere in-between.

I don't think there is any ultimate truth out there. We all have to find our own way and we adapt what folks recommend and combine this with our own experiences and experiments to get what works best for us.

Ultimately if you are both enjoying your shaves and using all the shaving gear and your razors are doing you justice then you are ahead of the game.

I realize this stuff can become an obsession but at some point you need to step back and kind of reevaluate the situation. If your able to sure you can just buy, buy, buy every time the latest and greatest anything comes along be it razor or hone or brush or strop but probably for most of us we have a buget to consider.

I sometimes have to wonder when I see posts from guys who just started with straights a month ago and they already have 100 razors and 10 brushes and so on. Getting yourself overwhelmed by this ain't good.

Just take it slow and learn and read and listen and periodically reevaluate and practice and experiment and very slowly advance and put the credit card away.

That's Thebigspendurs perscription for today.