Thread: Why the linen strop!!!!

Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

So should I email the people at Dictionary.com

Thanks for being so clever!

I'm used to seeing Angstrom as 10^(-10) meters (that's the only way I could figur out to do an exponential). That's 10^(-7) mm, which is 1/10,000,000. I'm soory, my quick mental arithmetic was wrong, but all the other numbers were not.

You're absolutely right: it's not rocket science -- it's shaving science.

You said earlier that any sharpening the strop does is on a microscopic level which "doesn't matter." You've got to be kidding.

This isn't "magic wand" stuff no one is able to explain; stropping provides the finishing touches to the blade's edge, which, in addition to the water and all of our scented shaving soaps and creams, makes the shave better. You may not be able to see the changes in the blade with the naked eye, but that doesn't change the fact that there are changes when you draw the edge across the linen and leather sides of a strop.

Please don't display your ignorance. This proves that you're making it all to complicated, because you don't understand.

I've looked at all this under a microscope at up to 200x, and I know quite well what's going on. If you want to see microscope shots, go to Robert Williams' site srtraightedgerazors.com and do a search for "scratch" you'll find microphotos at 200x of a razor being honed from Ebay to stropping (about a year ago). You should also read Prof Verhoeven's treatise on knife sharpening experiments, where he clearly concludes that ordinary stropping does not increase sharpness, after honing. Then do a little research on what the primary purpose of honing is, and you can come back, and we'll talk. Before that, you're nothing but a wiseass.

Just to get you started, I'll tell you that the primary purpose for a strop is to realign the "fin", which is made up of microscopic teeth (you can't see them even at 200x). When yo shave, those teeth get spread in all directions and make the edge look wider. WHen you strop it pushes those teeth in, standing them straight up and making the edge look thinner or sharper. That may be why you think the strop has sharpened the edge.

Over time 1-2 weeks stropping will fail to restore sharpness. At that point you can touch up the razor quickly with a fine hone or pasted strop. That removes material (sharpens) and and restores the sharpness, so you can go back to just stropping until the next time you need to refresh.

On an absolute level, eveerything removes material, including your finger. But a strop removes so little (probably orders of magnitude below a .25 micron paste) that it's considered non-abrasive, and we ignore any amount of material it might remove. Sure you could use it to remove material, just like water can wear down a stone, but it would take over ten times the amount of stropping you normally do.

I do strop after honing, but not a lot, maybe 20 reps. I find that it smooths the edge to my liking. Others may not care. Robert has a photo of a razor after stropping. What you can see is that it caused the scratch lines f the 12K hone to fade slightly. That's the smoothing I'm talking about. If you want to call that sharpening, fine. Then rubbing the edge with my finger sharpens it.

Originally Posted by JLStorm

I have a linen strop for home, and a leather only strop for travel. The linen side gives me a better shaves with wedges then all leather does, but for most blades if I use the rough side of the leather before the stropping side I get a great shave with my travel strop.

Linnen stropping has always been contoversial. I use it, and I think it works, but not by itself. The explanation I've heard for the linnen is that it warms the blade. It may sound trivial, but it could have a lot of value. When you realize that stropping is pushing around the fin, warming would make it more flexible.

Excuse me Professor Lerch, but if your blades are losing sharpness within 1-2 weeks and are requiring that much refreshing, somthin ain't right Lucy.......

I linen strop occasionally as well and the science you describe is lost on me, but the leather strop alone should be all you need for up to several months.

Have fun.

Lynn

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I agree. The article is ianaccurate but has the right idea. Your strop will not be sharpening anything, except on on a microscopic levle that doesn't matter.

Joe,
You always refer to how the fin "teeth" are microscopic and not visable eg. ost #21 ;Just to get you started, I'll tell you that the primary purpose for a strop is to realign the "fin", which is made up of microscopic teeth (you can't see them even at 200x).
So this sharpening the strop does on a microscopic level is not realy sharpening the microscopic fin teeth etc.
ROTFLOL

Linen must be useful to the shaver in stropping, why would they have put it together with strops for ALL those years?

Bless ya Joe, you do make me laugh

PuFF

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Thanks for being so clever!

Hey, no problem! Thank you for the additional nonsensical, typo-riddled posts, which appear to have convinced several other users -- among them, our resident shaving Guru -- that you don't know what you're talking about.

Please don't display your ignorance.

Then please don't send us mixed signals, Joe. At a glance, your posts look like your challenging the board to an "Ignorance-Off" competition!

I've cited most of your stand-out comments already: bungling the definition of angstrom; contradicting yourself at every turn, notably by saying that the microscopic level changes in the blade "don't matter," only to turn right around and reference microscopic evidence (from what seems to be the only source you've investigated) as though you're shoving something in my face. You're only consistent in your inconsistency, I'm afraid.

You should also read Prof Verhoeven's treatise on knife sharpening experiments, where he clearly concludes that ordinary stropping does not increase sharpness, after honing.

We're not talking about knife sharpening, we're talking about razor sharpening. You seem to be big on repetition, so I'll again refer you to that National Geographic documentary on shaving, which mentions that the edge on any knife is not at all like the edge of a razor. I'll fetch the link and post it shortly for you.

On an absolute level, eveerything removes material, including your finger.

And what I'm saying is that stropping does quite a bit to improve the edge, despite the fact that we're quantifying these improvements in angstroms. It all adds up in the end, from the initial strokes on the stone to the final ones on the linen and leather. It's a matter of incrementally improving the refinement. You're right about everything removing material, but you're wrong when you understate the strop's value. Earlier I jokingly said that you could probably fart on a razor and "waste a few hundred angstroms," beating your "even your finger removes material" comment to the punch.

Material is always removed and the edge is constantly refined. A thumb doing it just as well as a strop, though? Come on, now. That's pretty ridiculous.

You can go ahead and believe that it doesn't make an impact...but you'll still be wrong.

This is what I know:

Linen is a great starter. I've never tried it as a finisher.
Good leather, well employed is a great finisher.
Proper stropping is essential to the function of the edge.
Ample stropping will prolong the lifespan of the edge.
Improper stropping is immediately detrimental to the the edge.
Inadequate stropping is detrimental to the lifespan of the edge.

These are the facts as I understand them.
Everything else is conjecture as far as I'm concerned.

X

Seems to me this thread is more about axe grinding than razor sharpening
Best regards Gary

Originally Posted by adjustme69

Excuse me Professor Lerch, but if your blades are losing sharpness within 1-2 weeks and are requiring that much refreshing, somthin ain't right Lucy.......

I linen strop occasionally as well and the science you describe is lost on me, but the leather strop alone should be all you need for up to several months.

Have fun.

Lynn

Do you mean months without refreshing, because that's the honing I'm talking about.- I do three swipes on a Swaty about every other week and no other honing?

Tis exactly what I meant.

Lynn

Originally Posted by PuFFaH

Joe,
You always refer to how the fin "teeth" are microscopic and not visable eg. ost #21 ;Just to get you started, I'll tell you that the primary purpose for a strop is to realign the "fin", which is made up of microscopic teeth (you can't see them even at 200x).
So this sharpening the strop does on a microscopic level is not realy sharpening the microscopic fin teeth etc.
ROTFLOL

Linen must be useful to the shaver in stropping, why would they have put it together with strops for ALL those years?

Bless ya Joe, you do make me laugh

PuFF

Even at that level, it does not sharpen the fin, it judy aligns it. I admit that everything has to remove some material, but thestrops abrasiveness is so little compared to everything els we use that it's not considered abrasive.

I have heard two reasons for using the linnen: warming the edge and cleaning it before you put it on the leather. If you don't put abrasive on it, I don't see what else it could do? Have you heard of anything?

BTW, the use of linnen is controverial. For example, Lynn doesn't use it much and other guys with 25 years of experience swear by it, every shave. The barber manual, since 1931, has not taken sides.

Tonsils mus be useful for something. We're born with them, but mine were removed when I was a child. So, linnen has been there on some strops. Do you suppose it's there for any other reason than to sell strops?

BTW, I have seen the fin teeth in electron microscope shots at 3,000x+. Furi knife, I think, has a site where they posted such shots.