Thread: the 8k shave

Originally Posted by Tack

We're overthinking it. The point is that if you can't get a good shaving edge finished on the 8K, the problem is not with the finisher. No finisher in the world will make up for a bad bevel. Well, I suppose we could set bevels on a 30K Shapton but we might need six months to do it.



rs,
Tack

While what you are saying appears to be true, I don't think anyone is using an 8K to set a bevel either. I think the question that earcutter is proposing is why have we settled on 8k as the benchmark vs. ?.

It's all about learning the basics and building a solid foundation, the key word is foundation. You must learn to use these three stones effectively:
bevel setter (*/- 1000 grit)
pre-polisher (+/- 4000 grit)
polisher (+/- 8000 grit)

Learning to use a finisher (above 8000 grit) is futile...your shaves will still be terrible if you don't have the first three stones conquered.

I personally recommend that a person should learn to touch up a razor that is starting to pull first with a barber hone, 12K, or 16K. This way someone isn't working with re-setting a bevel.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

It's all about learning the basics and building a solid foundation, the key word is foundation. You must learn to use these three stones effectively:
bevel setter (*/- 1000 grit)
pre-polisher (+/- 4000 grit)
polisher (+/- 8000 grit)

Learning to use a finisher (above 8000 grit) is futile...your shaves will still be terrible if you don't have the first three stones conquered.

I personally recommend that a person should learn to touch up a razor that is starting to pull first with a barber hone, 12K, or 16K. This way someone isn't working with re-setting a bevel.

I agree with this but I think we have all seen that it is often suggested to new guys, even those just wanting to maintain an already good edge, that they get a Norton 4/8k. That may be a good stone for overall use but if you're primary goal is to just maintain, I agree with you that the 12k or 16k is a better choice.

Well its been a couple of days and 13 reply's, and I still don't see it. Thanks for your inputs gents.

I don't know, I guess it just seems to me if you can't get a 8K shave (and why would you want one), then you can't get a 12K shave. Heck, if you can't work the 3K stone, you can't work any stone. Moreover, I agree (maybe incorrectly) that the bevel setting is the most important aspect to honing.

I mean if you blow an 8K hone, you still have to go backward, so why not try for the best and work backward from there? One more stone isn't going to make or break it in my opinion. Perhaps I just don't see that big a difference between mastering an 8k and a 10 or 12K.

I guess I can see what you are all saying, but to me, it's akin to only putting in regular gas in a Porsche until you have had if for a month or two just so you know what if feels like to drive a normal car. Why?

Maybe it's just me - its not like I'll never be able to drive a Porsche to its full potential, but I'll always make sure it has the best gas/tires etc and try... I can't seem to separate that notion or way of thinking when it comes to honing. I'll always and have always strive for the best finish. Sure at first I couldn't get it but it didn't harm me in any way - I simply had to go back again. Like many of us do.

I mean it's not that it matters - we do what makes us happy and what we feel is right... I just don't like my 8K only hones nearly as much as my 10K. Maybe I should have practiced with it more lol... who knows? All I know is I significantly prefer a 10K finish over my 8K...

Originally Posted by earcutter

Well its been a couple of days and 13 reply's, and I still don't see it. Thanks for your inputs gents.

I don't know, I guess it just seems to me if you can't get a 8K shave (and why would you want one), then you can't get a 12K shave. Heck, if you can't work the 3K stone, you can't work any stone. Moreover, I agree (maybe incorrectly) that the bevel setting is the most important aspect to honing.

I mean if you blow an 8K hone, you still have to go backward, so why not try for the best and work backward from there? One more stone isn't going to make or break it in my opinion. Perhaps I just don't see that big a difference between mastering an 8k and a 10 or 12K.

I guess I can see what you are all saying, but to me, it's akin to only putting in regular gas in a Porsche until you have had if for a month or two just so you know what if feels like to drive a normal car. Why?

Maybe it's just me - its not like I'll never be able to drive a Porsche to its full potential, but I'll always make sure it has the best gas/tires etc and try... I can't seem to separate that notion or way of thinking when it comes to honing. I'll always and have always strive for the best finish. Sure at first I couldn't get it but it didn't harm me in any way - I simply had to go back again. Like many of us do.

I mean it's not that it matters - we do what makes us happy and what we feel is right... I just don't like my 8K only hones nearly as much as my 10K. Maybe I should have practiced with it more lol... who knows? All I know is I significantly prefer a 10K finish over my 8K...

I think this is exactly what I'm saying when I say that there's no point in trying to replicate a professionally honed edge with an 8k stone. The 8k edge should shave but not like a 20k edge. If it did, why would we bother with them? I think the popular opinion is that at 8k the edge has crossed into the "shaveable" territory where at 4k, its still quite a miserable, harsh shave. And I think that we often stress the bevel setting stage and the 8k stage at the detriment of the 4k. So much so, that I've seen people post that they go right from 1k to 8k. All of this I find is a symptom of the inadequacy of words to fully convey what a person needs to know in order to recognize when to move from one grit/stone to the next. It has one person skipping the 4k stage and another potentially thinking that 12k will correct what 8k failed to achieve.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

While what you are saying appears to be true, I don't think anyone is using an 8K to set a bevel either. I think the question that earcutter is proposing is why have we settled on 8k as the benchmark vs. ?.

Ah, I see the confusion. I don't think we have set the 8K as a benchmark. It is, rather, the lowest grit hone that we would consider to be a finisher. Once again, if we haven't done our jobs at the bevel and intermediate refining stages, the finisher.. whatever it might be.. will be of little help. We'd just end up with very smooth sides on the bevel of a dull razor.

If we want to change the conversation to what is the "benchmark" or the "best" finishing hone we'd better prepare for hand to hand combat.



rs,
Tack

Originally Posted by earcutter

Well its been a couple of days and 13 reply's, and I still don't see it...
I guess I can see what you are all saying, but to me, it's akin to only putting in regular gas in a Porsche until you have had if for a month or two just so you know what if feels like to drive a normal car. Why?...

The petrol you drizzle into the tank has practically zero affect on the road feel and responsiveness of the drive one experiences in a Porsche (or whatever legendary sporting car one chooses). And only a yahoo pushes the true envelope of any vehicle on public roadways. My BMW was faster than my Porsche yo and my truck has over 2x the power either of them had.

I shaved off the 8k when i had a coticule in house, because i was a novice honer and didn't understand how to use the coticule properly. The 8k shave is a good one, ESPECIALLY when you are learning everything all at once.

My face, now more educated can differentiate and appreciate many more degrees of sharpness, but a new shoe ain't going to know the diff. I didn't. But then I started at the must-restore-to-use end of the spectrum.

I don't know what you are looking for. I follow the logic of the other responders.

Shaving at 8k is a measure of your ability to hone. It's a learning tool. It can be (and I do) used for a check up of your progress no matter where you wind up. I was shaving off 8k with no paste. Works fine. Still does, but no one is required to do so.

You like your 10k, great. Rock on!

I would never recommend someone take that small a step from 8k, I'd jump to 12/16 or Natz. If one "finds himself" with a 10k stone, then by all means use it as it fits your needs. This whole bidness is VERY personal and varied. cheers.

And whut Tack said.

Well, I really do not see the reason either. You can get a 12k and learn to maintain a razor. Unless you are trying to learn how to hone/bevel set than that is another story. If you are trying to restore than that is a another mystery that completely eludes me. I think the 8k is only going to take you so far. Yes, I guess you can really wring as much as you can out of it, a la JNorton, but at the end of the day it is just the next to the last step.....or maybe the last?

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Well, I really do not see the reason either.
..

I haven't done a very good job of stating my opinion. Sorry about that, I'll try to do better.

The 8K edge was never intended to be the benchmark of a good edge or a quality shave. The reason for the "if you can't get a good shave off the 8K.." remark was that we all spend so much time talking about finishers as we, as gssixgun put it "chase the rainbow" looking for the perfect edge that a newcomer easily can the impression that all the magic is in the finisher. We know that smooth comes from the finisher while the sharp pretty much has to already be there by the time we get to the finisher but he doesn't.

How about we rephrase the admonition to "If you can't get a good shave off your finisher, chances are that buying a "better" finisher will not help you"? Or we could say "Don't rush out to buy that 30K GS until you've learned to finish on the one you have because you are likely to be disappointed."

Again, the recommendation was not about the quality of the 8K edge but about learning to use the equipment you already have before jumping into more advanced stuff. My granddad once said to me, in another context, "You got to be at least 10% smarter than the equipment you're running, boy." Those words seem appropriate here as well.



rs,
Tack

Originally Posted by WadePatton

The petrol you drizzle into the tank has practically zero affect on the road feel and responsiveness of the drive one experiences in a Porsche (or whatever legendary sporting car once chooses). And only a yahoo pushes the true envelope of any vehicle on public roadways. My BMW was faster than my Porsche yo and my truck has over 2x the power either of them had.

I shaved off the 8k when i had a coticule in house, because i was a novice honer and didn't understand how to use the coticule properly. The 8k shave is a good one, ESPECIALLY when you are learning everything all at once.

My face, now more educated can differentiate and appreciate many more degrees of sharpness, but a new shoe ain't going to know the diff. I didn't. But then I started at the must-restore-to-use end of the spectrum.

I don't know what you are looking for. I follow the logic of the other responders.

Shaving at 8k is a measure of your ability to hone. It's a learning tool. It can be (and I do) used for a check up of your progress no matter where you wind up. I was shaving off 8k with no paste. Works fine. Still does, but no one is required to do so.

You like your 10k, great. Rock on!

I would never recommend someone take that small a step from 8k, I'd jump to 12/16 or Natz. If one "finds himself" with a 10k stone, then by all means use it as it fits your needs. This whole bidness is VERY personal and varied. cheers.

And whut Tack said.

Wow!! Remind me to never talk cars with you!!!

Yes the topic is "VERY personal and varied" - thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps you'll note I am trying to make headway with my feelings on the topic... Glad you're so confident in your position. Dang!