Thread: Any idea what I could be doing wrong?

Originally Posted by Utopian

No, it does not. It takes usually takes much more than that to set a bevel. Do you recall the location of that other guide?

http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Creat..._Initial_Bevel

Typically this is about all that is needed for a new razor--5 front and back strokes on the 4K side of a Norton, HOWEVER it is not uncommon at all to need more. If the razors spine and blade feel completely flat on the hone, this should be all that is needed. The best way to tell if the razor is properly honed at this stage unfortunately is to move onto the next stage--polishing/establishing the initial shaving sharp edge, and testing the shaving sharp edge. Personally, I try to shave a little bit of hair on my arm, or back of my hand and based on how easy, or difficult it is to pop the hairs off, I can gauge how much more time on the 4K the edge needed. Sometimes I end up over honing on this stage, which means the microscopic "fin" I had created with the hone had broken off, or folded and I have to back hone. Back honing is quite simple - it is basically doing the opposite motion on the hone, so you are dragging the razor spine first on the hone, but remember you still want to roll the razor on the spine, NOT the edge to switch directions. Again, this is where honing can become difficult/tricky -- and it takes experience to know when a razor is ready to move onto the next stage, or when you have over honed, so make sure to ask questions on the forum in the honing section, but armed with the above, you'll be able to take experienced members advice/suggestions and put them to good use!

Actually, I'm starting to see that I may have misinterpreted it. I saw 5 strokes, then that he sometimes overhones, then thought that he saw saying going (significantly) over 5 strokes has the danger of over-honing.

Originally Posted by Amenrab

Actually, I'm starting to see that I may have misinterpreted it. I saw 5 strokes, then that he sometimes overhones, then thought that he saw saying going (significantly) over 5 strokes has the danger of over-honing.

When I was in culinary school a lot of the new students would ask, "chef, how long do I cook this?" The answer was always the same - until it's done. "Until it's done".....sounds simple enough but what is implied is that you KNOW when it's done. That's the real hard part about honing is knowing when it's done and when it's not. What do you look for? What indicates that it's done? Think in those terms and the learning curve may be a little less. You may count circles or strokes in terms of say sets of five or something. But the total number it takes to do anything is always going to be unique. As you're approaching this, think in terms of how, when, and where. Never how much. How much is for book keepers and coroners. It's after the fact.

Yeah, I'm learning that too(we are always in a perpetual state of learning, are we not?). Early on(which means not that many months ago), I started to realize this profundity in my honing.

From what I've witnessed, when one gets to a level of proficiency, one just knows. However, when in doubt, do your tests. The thumb nail test and marker tests for bevel setting,,, HHT, ARM, shave test... not all in that order, except for the bevel setting tests....

Bell sounded, off to next class

I can say this. Old razors were all honed differently by different hands. They have been used to open boxes and letters. My best results have been to make sure it is dead dull and tape the spine 1 layer and hone on a DMt until it gets 'pocketknife' sharp. Then look at the bevel. If it is way too wide, hone it some more on 1k to get the scratches out and , with 2 layers, go at the DMT lightly a bit. THEN go to the hones. If you are not touching the edge or trying to hone too wide a bevel, it will take a lifetime! I DO use a well-worn DMT for this with LOTS of water. No need to push down! Light!
JMHO

Originally Posted by Amenrab

Hours? I was reading another guide that only recommended 10passes or so to set a bevel, otherwise there's the danger of over-honing. Does that only apply to razors that have never been honed, like dovos?

I wouldn't worry much about overhoning when trying to set bevel on an old razor with a 4K stone, I've never had a new razor but anything I've bought off the bay has seen a fair bit of time on a 1K. Even with shave ready blades from other members I've done a lot more than 10 passes to get the bevel in step with my honing stroke.

Originally Posted by Amenrab

Actually, I'm starting to see that I may have misinterpreted it. I saw 5 strokes, then that he sometimes overhones, then thought that he saw saying going (significantly) over 5 strokes has the danger of over-honing.

Actually I think you were mis-led. There is a lot that I disagree with in that link.

First and most critically, you will be hard-pressed to ever come close to setting a bevel on any razor doing 5 strokes on a 4k or even a 1k.

Rather than running down an entire list, I'll just say that you are in NO peril of over-honing during a bevel set on a 4k or a 1k. You may remove more steel than necessary, but you are not going to create a fin, or burr, during the bevel setting of a razor. Such a burr is the definition of over-honing at this stage and you will be hard-pressed to ever see it on a razor. In my opinion, over-honing on a razor only occurs on the higher grit synthetics when the edge becomes too brittle.