Thread: Hones that are clay based v Resin based.

After being a naniwa only hone user I felt that my finisher the 10k was a hard stone. I've conferred on this site with Onimaru55, who kindly offered me his personal assessment, but I'm a stubborn bloke and I made a change from the resin 10k naniwa, to what most say is a duplication, by getting myself an Ice Bear (King), clay based 10k stone, that came with the nagura stone. I found it to be a softer stone with a lovely glide, especially after creating a slurry with the nagura stone. Am I right or nuts? The way I see it is if I get a good result then I'm happy. The Ice Bear is 205 x 75 x 25, an ample size for our razors and is very expensive. I rarely see it appear on the forums, except one video of Gssixgun who when doing a VIDEO of naniwa progression set his bevel with a King, by-passing, the naniwa.. Anyway, if you try a king..clay based stone you may find it a good stone, when you aren't a pro. It's less hardness is good for when you are learning. I accept the advice given and I am thankful for it. But me being me I felt the clay based stone was worth a go. I already had a king 1k/6k clay stone, and always ended up in good shape before I manage to dull it on a very hard 10k. The big lesson I have now learned is that, ,the stone (Ice Bear) is luxurious, large and smooth to use. But, my problem has always been too much pressure. Using a slick slurry created by the nagura, has allowed me to comfortably touch up, and believe me I've shaved off the G & F !!! This whole sport/hobby is so rewarding when you get it totally right. Keep reading, one day I will have done it! The ice bear stone is mounted on a wooden base, it is a really lovely bit of kit.

Originally Posted by bobski

After being a naniwa only hone user I felt that my finisher the 10k was a hard stone. I've conferred on this site with Onimaru55, who kindly offered me his personal assessment, but I'm a stubborn bloke and I made a change from the resin 10k naniwa, to what most say is a duplication, by getting myself an Ice Bear (King), clay based 10k stone, that came with the nagura stone. I found it to be a softer stone with a lovely glide, especially after creating a slurry with the nagura stone. Am I right or nuts? The way I see it is if I get a good result then I'm happy. The Ice Bear is 205 x 75 x 25, an ample size for our razors and is very expensive. I rarely see it appear on the forums, except one video of Gssixgun who when doing a VIDEO of naniwa progression set his bevel with a King, by-passing, the naniwa.. Anyway, if you try a king..clay based stone you may find it a good stone, when you aren't a pro. It's less hardness is good for when you are learning. I accept the advice given and I am thankful for it. But me being me I felt the clay based stone was worth a go. I already had a king 1k/6k clay stone, and always ended up in good shape before I manage to dull it on a very hard 10k. The big lesson I have now learned is that, ,the stone (Ice Bear) is luxurious, large and smooth to use. But, my problem has always been too much pressure. Using a slick slurry created by the nagura, has allowed me to comfortably touch up, and believe me I've shaved off the G & F !!! This whole sport/hobby is so rewarding when you get it totally right. Keep reading, one day I will have done it! The ice bear stone is mounted on a wooden base, it is a really lovely bit of kit.

If you don't mind me asking... Where did you get it from and how much was it?

Just an update on the use of the clay based Icebear 10k hone. (Made by King) I have been using it for two months now, and passed the nani 10k on to another member of our site who loves it. Clay based stones I have found to be a little softer in the smaller grits (Smaller than 4k) At 8k, 10k, clays don't need lengthy soaking and therefore don't degrade to any greater degree than resin based. In the beginning my technique on finishing was partly due to my inexperience. (Too much pressure), now I understand a little more I am at ease in reaching the last stroke on my finisher. Not all blokes need more than 10k/12k finishers. In fact if it hurts you having a shave off the 10k, it's technique. As to spending a fair bit on say a shapton 16k, each to his own, but for me a balsa strop with Chromium Oxide at a few dollars, gives enough to let me and my 9 other razors, pass the only important test...the shave test. The penny dropped for me when I learnt more is less re pressure. If you are on a razor with a 1k stone sure, it needs some pressure.6k and up soft is the go. I have leanrt a lot from our moderator Onimaru55 about good practice when honing. I do it because I love it, so when you get it right, you can't wait to tell the bloke who honed that first razor for you. (havachat45....many thanks)
Bobski

As far as the clay vs. resin, this micron vs. that micron, dry, soaked, clear, slurried, etc. All of that stuff is somewhat personal preference. The rubber hits the road on all of those stones if the razor you're using takes unexplained damage off of the finish stone before you can get to the chrome ox, that's a real problem. Or to me is *the* real problem in honing. The only stone that I've ever seen be completely immune from damage comments is the gokumyo 20k, a stone I'd love to have but have no need for.

The next step after you have a reliable setup is to get a good vintage linen, which literally will keep you away from hones for months, maybe up to a year if you get a good razor, strop, linen setup. I take my main shaver back to the stones about every 6 months, and if I work the razor all the way to the edge on a vintage japanese barber hone, it is duller than where the linen kept it. For maintenance, I am sure we are much harder on a razor than a barber would've been - I used to hone every 2-3 weeks, but once you get a few rare and valuable razors, you might get a bend in your brain where you want them to be blindingly sharp, but not at the cost of abrading them away.

That's what a good linen is good for. If the linen doesn't improve a chrome ox edge over a period of a few weeks, it's not a good linen.

As far as the clay binder stones go, my favorite is the kitayama 8k stone, but it may be a bit coarse for a razor. It's an imanishi product, is still fairly soft, but is a bit finer and denser than stuff like a king 8k.

Originally Posted by DaveW

As far as the clay vs. resin, this micron vs. that micron, dry, soaked, clear, slurried, etc. All of that stuff is somewhat personal preference. The rubber hits the road on all of those stones if the razor you're using takes unexplained damage off of the finish stone before you can get to the chrome ox, that's a real problem. Or to me is *the* real problem in honing. The only stone that I've ever seen be completely immune from damage comments is the gokumyo 20k, a stone I'd love to have but have no need for.

The next step after you have a reliable setup is to get a good vintage linen, which literally will keep you away from hones for months, maybe up to a year if you get a good razor, strop, linen setup. I take my main shaver back to the stones about every 6 months, and if I work the razor all the way to the edge on a vintage japanese barber hone, it is duller than where the linen kept it. For maintenance, I am sure we are much harder on a razor than a barber would've been - I used to hone every 2-3 weeks, but once you get a few rare and valuable razors, you might get a bend in your brain where you want them to be blindingly sharp, but not at the cost of abrading them away.

That's what a good linen is good for. If the linen doesn't improve a chrome ox edge over a period of a few weeks, it's not a good linen.

As far as the clay binder stones go, my favorite is the kitayama 8k stone, but it may be a bit coarse for a razor. It's an imanishi product, is still fairly soft, but is a bit finer and denser than stuff like a king 8k.

Thanks a lot Dave, mate honing is a developing art, and I'm the 1st to admit my issues with types of stones is a technique deficit, it's not a fast learning curve. My question for you is the 'Linen' you use. I bought a few strops so far and the 2nd strop on the back of a 3 inch latigo is quite tough, known as poly webbing. I have another 3 inch strop, that the 2nd strop is felt. I like it the best, the workmanship of the synthetic being outstanding, but I hear you re the linen. I have listened and tried to absorb as many opinions as possible, eg Murray Carter, Taping spines, back honing. Lynn Abrams doesn't use tape Gssixgun does. No one is right or wrong, these are personal choices There are many who swear by 'their' way. I tend to pick the bones out of the info and integrate it into getting a good shave for me. I am really happy with the stones I have now, like you I'd like the Gokumyo 20 k, but you point out correctly, there are 'wants' and 'needs'. I really like cheap balsa blocks, 3" x 3" covered in Crox mixed with mineral oil. I looked at Dr Matt's nanocloth, made my own version, and so the journey continues. Today I had a shave with a Dovo 6/8 Bismarck, re-touched with my new finishing ways. Lovely shave. Sometimes I think we look at 'sharp' as some holy grail. Hanging hair tests I don't do, I see if it feels sharp with my thumb pad. If it grabs I shave with it. As I said, mate your views on linen (cotton as I know it) vs the fad of new strops whose 2nd side is 'poly' is most welcome.
Cheers Bob

As you mention, many ways to get it done, pretty much all of them result in a comfortable shave, and despite being a fanatic about vintage razors, I do love the bismarck - put it at the top of the cheek and you can pull it to the adams apple in one smooth motion.

I haven't tried any polyweb strops, though I've had canvas and felt on new strops. The vintage linens are just a little different (can be found on old certifyd strops, etc, and say "silk finish" on them or something of the sort). Their virtue is how sharp they keep the razor without any abrasives, which is something to love once you find a razor that you can't find a second of. I've been looking for 6 years now for another fried dennert razor that's got some spinework and not much wear, and have found none. At first, I didn't shave much with the razor for fear of honing it, but with a linen, I think the razor would easily last 100 years as long as I don't drop it or ding it into the sink. There is just something lovely about the idea that you're getting to use your razor and keeping it sharp without abrading off any material amount of metal - it's like getting something for nothing.

Would love to find a linen like that! Any suggestions on where to look/what brands/markings might be it? My guess is those old linens were treated w/ something super slow & fine that does remove trace amounts of metal, albeit much less than even a light touchup on a finisher. Wish we knew for sure what it was, if anything.

Originally Posted by PA23-250

Would love to find a linen like that! Any suggestions on where to look/what brands/markings might be it? My guess is those old linens were treated w/ something super slow & fine that does remove trace amounts of metal, albeit much less than even a light touchup on a finisher. Wish we knew for sure what it was, if anything.

You might be better informed from DaveW,I can only think of the obvious, mineral based cutting compounds, used by panel beaters, that polishes, but by it's name 'cuts' I have no idea of what grit it may be, but such a polish impregnated into a linen strop. This may be what it is, after all, after our say 10-12k all is polish, very little metal should abrade at such grit sizes, So DaveW, help us to get to the bottom of this one. Dave says it improves a chromium Oxide finish, which tells me it may have a bit more cut to it. What colour is the linen?

Regards Bob

Some of the old linen strops were rubbed with lead but maybe you didn't want to hear that.

I saw that Kanayama documentary (Made in Japan) & he impregnates a grey powder into the strops toward the end (w/ something that looks like beeswax). This is the leather side, now, but I remember reading something about old strops being impregnated w/ graphite, so maybe that's what it is. Still not sure about the linen side. Maybe a precursor to Dovo white paste?