Thread: ~16k natural stone options

Originally Posted by tab

Understanding that all natural stones differ, are there any that land somewhat regularly in the 16k range?

Many variables here I know, and chances are there isn't a yes\no answer to the question. I'm new to honing so I guess I don't know how to better ask the question. Hopefully it can spark a good discussion.

I'm late to this post, but I have a thought about this. I've been a regular stone pig of all types, partially due to woodworking and partially due to razoring. I've never seen a natural stone that is reputed to have particles regularly smaller than 3 microns.

The 16k range stones are slightly sub 1 micron.

With natural stones, you're hoping for a stone with a mostly closed matrix, particles as small as possible and the ability of the particles in the matrix to stay put and get dull.

There is a learning curve with all natural stones, especially if you're used to synthetic stones.

As a natural stone fanatic, there really hasn't been a synthetic stone I could get a great edge out of (great being keen and smooth) and I didn't have a synthetic stone that made what felt to me to be a more keen edge than a good japanese finisher. I think a lot of people who use synthetic stones more and natural stones less would disagree with that. I use natural stones more and synthetic stones less.

I'd hesitate to call a stone equivalent to a synthetic stone or powder because if you use the stone as the last step, the edge is going to feel different than a powder or paste edge. But the biggest variable in a natural stone that is:
* not scratchy / no toxic particles
* made of some kind of variant of silica for the abrasive (japanese stones, novaculite, jasper, hone slates, thuri, ...)
* hard enough to not release particles
* does not have any voids or even a generally open or partially open matrix

Then it's really up to the user.

I have felt like the hard japanese stones are a lateral move to a gok, but I like the edge off of a japanese stone better. It can be easily said that the japanese stone once settled in will cut slower, but that is OK, because your primary job with it will be maintenance, and maintenance requires an extremely small amount of metal removal.

With the fine stones, it's the learning curve that's the problem. it seems to me the best way to learn a stone is to force yourself to not use anything else at all for several months, and work your razor until you get an edge you like.

When we talk about which natural stones are like 16k and which are finer than 16k, it makes me cringe a little bit because none have particles as small as 1 micron or even close. It's the versatility of the stone and you as a user that makes the stones work well. Get an appropriate stone if you want and use it for a while. It may take many honings before it settles in to what you like. I know if I lap my japanese finishers with anything at all, even if it's just another stone, I don't like them for quite a while. I like them completely settled in.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I've never seen a natural stone that is reputed to have particles regularly smaller than 3 microns.

The 16k range stones are slightly sub 1 micron.


When we talk about which natural stones are like 16k and which are finer than 16k, it makes me cringe a little bit because none have particles as small as 1 micron or even close. It's the versatility of the stone and you as a user that makes the stones work well. .

Can you say that one more time please.... Maybe put it all in big huge red letters that flash

Was just having this exact discussion in another thread,, Over the last 7 years on this forum and on E-bay etc: I have seen the "Estimated Grit" of all Naturals and all Barber's Hones just climb higher and higher with either no proof or limited subjective proof at best to the high grit claims...

I'm sure the flip side to this question is whether or not you can take a 1 micron stone and dull the particles until it is finishing a razor really finely.

The answer to that as far as I know is no. The abrasives in the stones made now are some kind of alumina (sometimes they are referred to as "ceramic"), silicon carbide, diamond, etc. they are all durable abrasive so that they cut fast for a wide range of applications.

I agree about the ebay listings, what's even more irritating is when people say "estimated to be 12k grit slurried and 15k grit on clear water".

huh? loose 3+ micron particles are equivalent to a stone with particles just over a micron?

Having experience with various stones is so much nicer than having to guess from peoples' listings what you're really getting. Of course, that's an expensive way to go. For the average person maintaining a razor, one working finish stone of one type and a good linen ....well, I won't even pretend that I've ever been the type to sell off all stones but one.

I do like the idea of forcing yourself to use one stone until you get good with it....if a stone is passable or better, it's a good way for us to teach ourselves that it's experience that is lacking and probably not the stone. And then a good (nonabrasive) linen used once a week until the razor pulls is a good way for us to teach ourselves how seldom a razor needs to be honed, anyway.

My take away is skill trumps expensive stones .and I have and will likely believe this till I am clearly shown otherwise.-CAM-

If you learn to maintain a razor without removing the edge completely (as the old barber hones suggest), then even with mediocre stones, that's very true. And I don't find those edges any less sharp than stone and powder edges until you get to the real outer reaches (the 0.1 micron-ish powders will beat it, but those are very transient edges unless you keep refreshing them). I still get weepers the first day a razor is off of linen (which is once a week), even if the razor has seen 100 shaves since it last saw a stone.

Originally Posted by tab

Understanding that all natural stones differ, are there any that land somewhat regularly in the 16k range?

I think the better way to ask the question is "what natural stone can I use after my 12k synthetic ? "

The answer then becomes, "the finest natural finisher you can afford & of a hardness that you are capable of using or wanting to learn how to use."

As was already said the Gok 20 is the cheaper & easier to use alternative if the natural option is not essential for you.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I think the better way to ask the question is "what natural stone can I use after my 12k synthetic ? "

The answer then becomes, "the finest natural finisher you can afford & of a hardness that you are capable of using or wanting to learn how to use."

As was already said the Gok 20 is the cheaper & easier to use alternative if the natural option is not essential for you.

Great discussion - I appreciate all of the info from both camps.
I believe onimaru55's question above is appropriately rephrased, and answered for me within the thread.