Thread: JNat ID help

I picked up this hone a while ago and was wondering if anyone has an idea what it is? I think it could be a wakasa but don't really know. Any help would be grand.
Thanks,
-Luke-

It appears to have the same stamp as Ozukus sold by Max and Mark:

Ozuku Asagi lv 5 + (a547) - Japanese Natural Stones

Ozuku Japanese Natural Stone

Fendrihan sold some too, maybe check their site.

Alex (thejapanstone) will tell you Ozuku closed in the 1920s and did not stamp stones, but there are stones being sold with the Ozuku marking.

Cheers, Steve

Looks almost like a Nakayama to me with the black kawa(if reflective in sun when dry) and the defined cloud pattern. But the stamp is Ozuku.

Either way i'm sure it is a top of the line stone. Congrats!

Nice looking stone there. It is hard to tell only from the photos but I am convinced that it is a Umegahata valley stone, the narrow valley where all the most famous mines are clustered, the colors in the skin are similar from mine to mine and it is helpful to actaully try out the stone and compare it to known samples from the different mines. Yours has these similar umber, ocher and burnt sienna browns that are typical of the valley stones. The sparkly black crystalization is an indicator of the Nakayama mine.

The sellers in Japan are stamping their own stones now. Wholesalers, retailers, flea market dealers and eBay sellers are having a field day stamping stones. Anyone can buy the stamps through the mail, and there are no copyrights for the names of the mines because the mines were in actuality only a location on a map and since all of the mines are now closed except for Ohira and Maruoyama, there is no legal claim to the names themselves of Nakayama, Ozuko, Okudo, Ozaki, Shinden, Narutaki, Mizukihara, etc. to be contested.

Up until about 3 years ago there was a gentlemans agreement amongst the major wholesalers to not stamp with specific mine names, so generic names like Yamashiro, Honyama and ShinHonZan were used if anything. The owner of the Ohira mine showed me that he has 2 drawers full of stamps, the Kyoto wholesale/retailer Imanishi-san now stamps his stones with the various mine names including Nakayama. The stones may in fact be from the Nakayama mine, or they might not. Some fellows can tell and Imanishi used to be shy about being able to tell or not.


On your stone and most stones now you really do just need to test them if they are or are not stamped. Each mines stones had distinct cosmetic indicators and physical sharpening qualities. Ohira tomae stones will never physically compare to the closer-in to Kyoto mines like Narutaki, Nakayama and Okudo. Ohira was just not born with the same quality grit 225 millon years ago. Ohira is the last mine to produce suita uchigumori, and they should be recognized for this and their specific brand of uchigumori qualities, but the fact is that all of the historic mines did have at one time a couple of layers of super quality uchigumori. So the fact is that, Ohira is really famous right now for their uchigumori mainly because they are the last mine/man standing and producing this type of stone. Ohira is not famous for their tomae stone, asgai, kiita included. Only for their suita.

More stones are sold outside Japan then domestically in Japan, the market program is to cater to Europe and the US with marked ink stamped stones. We read labels. We used to buy Guess jeans and Gucci shoes and remember when Mercedes was exotic, now we are sold Ozuku and Nakayama stones, not made thankfully in China, but made and ink stamped in Japan. This is not to be cynical, just factual.

If you are lucky enough to have a well stocked stone shop in your city or nearby, like the lucky few who live in Belgium or Japan, that you can drop into and test out the stones before you buy them, those stones do not need to be ink stamped as a selling point. You will gravitate towards quality, and once you test super quality stones you find yourself buying one really good one, and pass on the three that you can easily afford but of lessor quality. Ink stamps are fine, but they are only skin deep.

In short, test out your stone, if it does not match up and perform for razors, it might very well be an excellent knife or tool stone. Don't be shy about returning stones to the sellers and ask them to choose a better stone for your needs.

Good luck,
Alex

Alex, just more reason to read what a good dealer says a stone *does* (if it's a new stone) rather than buy from a mine. I don't buy high brand stones that are expensive because of a stamp, call me a cynic but I've felt that value due to stamps will be transient because sooner or later someone will counterfeit them just like guitars. I've favored going to dealers and asking for certain things and getting a non-stamped stone instead, and in fact two of my three favorite stones are of unknown origin but the do exactly what I expect because I asked about the property of the stones and not the mine.

the third is a stone that Takeshi Aoki called an Okudo suita (and by all visual aspects, it looks the part), but it was fairly inexpensive (~$225) because it's irregularly shaped. It has extreme cutting power without being coarse or scratchy, and will create a fine edge even on T15 HSS, albeit a bit more slowly than carbon steel.

Point being that all of these stones are compromised value wise either by shape or lack of stamps, but they are the three best stones I have ever used. We, in the US, want to be able to get something without learning about it, i"m convinced. That leads people to be brand conscious instead of learning about the properties or qualities of items, which makes us perfect targets for scamming or even just moderately dishonest practice.

I think you can score very good new JNats but finding a vintage one that has been used for decades/centuries and has the wear to show it reassures me more. Ultimately you just have to use them and find out for yourself what you have - I bought two new coticules and they are both crap - way too coarse IMO. Usually a good JNat is going to carry a high price because the person selling knows what he has... unless you get lucky and find one somewhere in an antique store or flea market. Plus all the good ones are snatched up by the people who know them and are willing to pay for them. Not saying your stone isn't good - it could be awesome - you just have to learn it and find out what it can do. To me the name/ID and place of origin are interesting but don't really determine how the stone is going to perform or whether or not you're even going to like it. It's a lot like the diamond industry - the buyer knows very little about what he's buying and has to rely on GIA reports and such to try to level the field - we need GIA/Honemeister reports for JNats!!!

-john

Originally Posted by ocelot27

I think you can score very good new JNats but finding a vintage one that has been used for decades/centuries and has the wear to show it reassures me more. Ultimately you just have to use them and find out for yourself what you have - I bought two new coticules and they are both crap - way too coarse IMO. Usually a good JNat is going to carry a high price because the person selling knows what he has... unless you get lucky and find one somewhere in an antique store or flea market. Plus all the good ones are snatched up by the people who know them and are willing to pay for them. Not saying your stone isn't good - it could be awesome - you just have to learn it and find out what it can do. To me the name/ID and place of origin are interesting but don't really determine how the stone is going to perform or whether or not you're even going to like it. It's a lot like the diamond industry - the buyer knows very little about what he's buying and has to rely on GIA reports and such to try to level the field - we need GIA/Honemeister reports for JNats!!!

-john

+1 John. In some ways we do have better information on JNats, many sellers describe individual stones unlike what I usually see with cotis and Thuris, and you can usually tell when a seller thinks the stone is a very good one just by the wording, grit/hardness numbers, and price.

I don't believe JNats are relatively that expensive. A lot of folks use 6x2 coticules or Thuringians, and a 6x2 JNat of good quality will compare very well indeed in price I believe. Plus being generally more versatile than a Thuri and easier to use than a coti.

Cheers, Steve