Thread: An Arkansas Stone Question

Originally Posted by dta116

This post is not about eBay, it is about knowledge. I am sure after the knowledge is obtained it could be used to collect more stones but that is not the point.

I would like to tell by visual means, the feel of the stone, honing with the stone, and as much information about the stone as I can absorb.

This stone is truly American and historic. I am drawn by this stone (as well as a beautiful black). I will be visiting Dan's in the near future and hopefully gain more knowledge.

As far as your pictures in your post; are these Washitas? One looks like a Washita, and the other a soft.

Dan's isn't going to be able to tell you a whole lot about washitas. Norton owns the old Pike mine area and has decided that while there is plenty of material still there, it's not profitable to go get it.

Washitas, and I don't know if this is completely accurate, but washitas come out in gigantic amounts and can be cut into stones. Most of the finer arkansas stones, especially translucents but maybe all of them, come out in odd shaped pieces and there is a huge amount waste involved in cutting them to regular shaped stones.

It would be fantastic if Dan's was allowed to take some mine stock from the old pike washita mine, and if you do go to Dan's, you'll be able to see their version of the washita (which is very low density, but is also fragile - the end of mine broke off in shipping, and examining it it's easy to see why, it's a very airy arkansas stone). But at this point, the mine is closed and none comes to market.

I have been an ardent stone purchaser, and I've sold off most of what I tried and kept a fair amount (that in itself is a total waste of money, the cost of ebay, shipping, etc, takes a 20% slice or so of everything that I try), and I think what you want to look at at dans is stones on the harder side, the softs are better gotten somewhere else. Dans' black stones and trans stones are as good as any I've ever seen, though, vintage or not. They are better than both versions of nortons (and I have bought several trans and a black from norton), but the softs from natural whetstone have been better (to me) for a stone that you want to have cutting aggressively (and NW's prices are very low, which is a double bonus).

Pike mine washitas have no equivalent elsewhere, though, and Dan himself will tell you that they're not the same thing (Dan's washitas vs. pike). You'll be getting arkansas stones from Dan's, which is fine, they are fine people and they will not mislead you.

Thanks David for that informative post. I have also talked to David at Natural Whetstones and he tells me his Washitas' are coming from a different mine although they look nothing like the Pikes', (white with black spots), his is white with purple banding.

I may visit both companies on my trip so hopefully I can come to some conclusion about these stones. hopefully I can get my hands on a few to see what the differences really are. I have some marked Washita but they are not distinctive any any way except for the porosity and are a bit more course. I don't believe I have ever tried a Pike or Norton.

If they are marked Pike Washita, Norton Washita, Behr Manning, Woodworker's Delight, Carpenter's Delight or Mechanic's Friend, they are real washitas. If they are smiths or some other later stone, they are just soft arkansas.

The point I'm making is that you mentioned you'd like to be able to tell a washita from a soft arkansas, and the current makers use washita as a description of a very low density soft arkansas, but none of them are washita stones. A real washita stone (like when you see a real vintage stone) is an entirely different stone, and will perform much better than anything new that's got a label of washita. A low density true washita stone will cut fast, but is capable of a fine edge if you let it settle in. A stone labeled washita that's just a low density soft arkansas stone won't really cut any faster but it won't have nearly the capability of cutting fine either, be it a freshly lapped stone, or one that's broken in.

You won't be able to tell much about the stones using them a little bit, the real character of them is something you have to judge using them over a long period of time. I haven't talked to Dave at NW about their washitas (only ordered the dark gray trans, soft and hard from them), but I know that he's not going to have access to a true washita stone. Nobody does except norton and they're not producing nor letting anyone else have stock to cut into bench stones. I think if you get to visit the places, you'll have a good productive visit about the range of arkansas stones, but you'll not see any actual washitas, no matter what they're labeled.

Here's a good representative shot that shows the pores of a Washita fairly decently. It's not the easiest thing to get a photo of. And I have tried some of the newer "Washita" stones also, they are not the same as the old real ones - except the new release Lily Whites that Norton let out several years back. Best bet to get one today is buying older stones.

Dave, I have heard some guys describe Washitas as "crunchy" and that they go out of flat faster than other Arks. Mine sure don't feel crunchy, they just feel like they get a good bite on the steel and take it off fast. I also don't notice much more dishing than with other Arks personally, but I don't use my Washitas 5 times a day every day either.

When they're freshly lapped, I'd say they have a bit of a feeling of "filing" the metal, it's a uniform smooth aggressive feeling, but not scratchy like a soft arkansas can be. Not everyone here uses chisels, but what strikes me with a true washita is that I can take any one of them, whether they are of the lilywhite type (which are the soft fast cutting large-pored stones) or a finer type, and even if they have been lapped and have swarf on them, a quick bare leather strop of a chisel sharpened on them will shave armhair pretty easily. The softs will just barely separate a couple of hairs here and there, and not have nearly as good of an edge.

A freshly lapped soft arkansas stone is a decent thing to have because it's fast and it doesn't cut deep grooves. Same with a freshly lapped washita. A settled in soft arkansas is a turd. Slow cutting and not fine. A settled in washita stone is right next in edge quality to a black or trans ark.

Crunchy is hard to relate to, though I could probably have been quoted as having used that before....maybe for an amakusa or something.

I've gotten a lot of older stones that have sway along their length, some severely. To my knowledge, the only way the stones give up particles easily is laminated tools or knives, or using something edge first with very large pressure. Laminated material will keep a stone conditioned somewhat if used with pressure (there was a link on here once about a japanese knife maker saying he didn't need nagura because he had jigane - soft metal - on his knives), as the soft metal seems to pull at some of the particles, and even a dull stone will cut the soft metal in laminated tools with ease.

Actually that's about a perfect analogy. Mine do feel almost exactly like a file cutting soft steel when fresh lapped and for a good while afterward. I lap when they start feeling a bit slicker. I never use much more than medium pressure on my stones, I just lap them if they need that. The guys using crunchy I almost start to think have only got experience with the newer "Washitas" that aren't really true Washitas.

Great info, Keep it up, I am beginning to understand.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Here's a good representative shot that shows the pores of a Washita fairly decently. It's not the easiest thing to get a photo of. And I have tried some of the newer "Washita" stones also, they are not the same as the old real ones - except the new release Lily Whites that Norton let out several years back. Best bet to get one today is buying older stones.

I can relate to this shot, Thanks.

Here are some stones for your consideration.

Do any of these look like Washita?







I can get some better shots if needed.