Thread: Salm Rock/Old Rock Coti's vs Other vintage Coticules

In my opinion, there are a lot of coticules that are not practical for one stone honing, and it would be "ridiculous" to claim otherwise. I have about 35 coticules. I have experimented with them extensively. I don't care who declares my statement to be "asinine." The reality is that not all coticules are practical for one stone honing. I can shave off of every single one of them, but the edges they produce do vary dramatically, as does their cutting speed.

That is the fun of natural hones. They all have personality, and my hones are all better than yours!

I have 2 vintage coticules. Neither is labelled. Each is different and I use them for different types of razors. One is 1x5 inches and the other is 2 1/2 x 5 inches . Different speeds too. I'm not too hung up on coticules if they have a label or not. When you talk about other stones....that is what throws me for a loop. What is legit and what isn't. If someone is selling a hone and says it is "X" hone..... How do I know what it really is unless it has a label on it. And some of hones go for too much money with a label IMHO. I can understand collecting them for the labels, but some people actually want to use a certain hone and know that it is the real deal. Unless a person can find them a flea market or yard sale or someone they know sells them at a good price, trying to pay market price for some hones is an expensive venture.......Coticules are easy to identify when seeing.....unless you get into the vein types.

Agreed, and I am perfectly content in declaring that I don't know from which vein any of my coticules came. In fact I only know from which mine only one of my coticules came, as I bought one of them from Ardennes.

I like their yellow color.

James.

There are some coticules that are usable for one stone honing without spending hours upon hours, and some that aren't.

There are some coticules that give a keen and comfortable shave ATG, and some that don't. Some that do provide a comfy shave are dead simple to use, and some aren't - those sometimes require a lot of experimentation to figure out what works best with them.

I would think that every coticule can provide a shaving edge. Whether that edge is comfortable enough to shave with ATG is another story. I can shave WTG with an edge that I would consider almost impossibly harsh ATG.

The 3/100 statement is probably out of context. My suspicion is that what the person may have meant was that 3/100 coticules give a very keen shaving edge, cut reasonably quickly and still give a super smooth and comfortable shave to include ATG.

These kinds of stones are the ones that give me a case of the idiot grins - that is to say, after I've seen some combination of just how fast the stone cuts, and how keen an edge it creates, and how amazingly comfortable it is to shave ATG with, I have one of those smiles that just won't quit and a sense of awe and amazement that nature could have produced such an item (if it's a natural stone).

Currently I have about 7 of them. 2 are coticules, 1 is a slate I found "in the wild" that I call Kuro, 1 is a yellow-green Escher, 1 is a Nakayama Maruka Kiita, 1 is a translucent black Arkansas, and finally a synth, my SG20k.

Originally Posted by eKretz

These kinds of stones are the ones that give me a case of the idiot grins - I have one of those smiles that just won't quit and a sense of awe and amazement that nature could have produced such an item (if it's a natural stone).

SG20k.

Agreed, agreed!

The "one stone hone" thing is ridiculous to begin with. Let's examine which stones can't maintain a razor that already has its bevel set and isn't dropped or dragged perpendicularly across a stone..

..(crickets)

None.

Let's examine the number of "one stone" hones that cut bevels like an agitated washita arkansas, a fine india or a synthetic 800-1000 waterstone.

Zero.

And the number of "one stone" hones that can set a bevel quickly and then turn around and polish an edge as well as a hard even japanese natural stone that allows you to literally wipe the razor across the surface any way you'd like and get a great edge.

Zero.

False dilemma.

No natural stone is too fine to maintain a razor - they all have reasonably large particles and can be made to release them one way or another.

As far as fiddling with a stone when a jnat that meets the criteria I mentioned above is $200 (or a third to half of that if you're willing to accept koppa), when only one in N coticules can come close to that for razor maintenance? No thanks.

I have a feeling that sham's comment about 3 out of 100 means 3 out of 100 worked like I'm describing a good jnat, and I think he's perfectly in bounds there. I've seen one coticule that you can wipe the razor across any way you want, get a bright polish, and an edge that's in the ball park of jnats. I sold it because i have jnats, but I won't be going on a search for another one because I'll have to buy 6 or 10 for more than the cost of a jnat each to find another one like it, and I may not.

I could fiddle an edge out of every coticule that I had, it was just an edge inferior to other stones that I have that have a much higher batting percentage with razors.

I would hate to be a beginner who only got a coticule and couldn't figure out why they weren't getting good edges.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I would hate to be a beginner who only got a coticule and couldn't figure out why they weren't getting good edges.

If I could start all over again, I wish I would have started with a coticule. Its versatility in my view is what makes it so appealing and I was so happy with the results that I sold all my naniwas and my expensive japanese natural finisher. So yeah, just one stone for honing works just fine for me. You could say that I may have lucked out with a good coticule, but I also bought a second one and its equally excellent. I think if you are buying from a vendor with expertise in coticules, then it is unlikely you will get a stone that is not suitable for straight razors.

The expensive japanese finishers are another thing that's a bugaboo for me. I can't see any difference in sharpness vs. any of the run of the mill very fine stones that any of the reputable dealers sell.

I think most people who would buy a coticule only as a beginner would find it unfavorable, that's just my opinion. There are others too complex for a beginner to get on with, though, too, like jaspers and agates, and especially if a beginner wants to venture into trying to shave off of a washita (which is doable, but the same technique I mentioned earlier has to be used - to condition the edge with a linen and never completely remove it).

I do think the natural combo coticules are the prettiest natural stones there are, though. I just wish they had particles a third the size of what they have.

I've had a deep rock and an old rock. The deep rock was soft and had a grainy feedback. I sold it a day later. I'm sure it was a good stone but just not what I like. The old rock was nice but I ended up not using it much so I sold it. I have a 6x1 1/4 genuine belgian razor hone that is way above average...wish it were bigger. The best vintage I have is a barbers pet coticule that was stamped extra extra choice. It's hard, decent speed and finishes great. The best coti I own and have ever tried is an ol preu mined la veinette. It's stupid hard, very fast and very fine, with glassy feedback. That's what I like in a coti.
As far as the 3/100...yeah I think his standards are just higher than most. It's hard for me to find a "keeper" because I want the stone to perform great, but also have the feel that I like under the blade. I've sold lots of stones that were great at honing razors, but regardless of performance if I don't enjoy using it, it goes.

Exceptional coticules are hard to come by. If you have one, hold on to it with both hands.