Thread: Salm Rock/Old Rock Coti's vs Other vintage Coticules

I was thinking it's more like a volkswagen beetle or a citroen 2cv!!

I don't get any drama from arks, but I'm used to arks. I go back to the jnat koppa sized stones that a dealer says are good for a razor because every one I've gotten is finer than cotis and it's just what you say, no drama. Put the razor on the hone in a slurry, rub it in it, dilute it. it really doesn't even matter what direction the strokes are or the amount of pressure.

The unfortunate thing about all of them (unmarked cotis, generic jnats, etc) is that they're all going up in price. I guess the ark stones aren't, but I don't like the arks in small stones, and the 8x2s are a bit cumbersome for a hand hone in the bathroom. If cotis could match the jnat barber hones I have, they'd be in my upstairs bathroom, but in the handy 5x2.5 size. The equivalent jnat koppa (in size and cost) is something like 6x3.

I can't say much for escher, I think they work well, but they are, too me, a $100 stone that costs $500. I'll give them consistency, they are all almost identical if they are labeled and the same color.

I don't much care for thuris tbh with you, but that may be because so many of my blades are Sheffield steel and I really don't feel it is a good marriage.

Originally Posted by RobinK

How come so many Solingen manufacturers used to use Coticules (before the advent of readily available synthetic hones, although two still use them today).

So they were readily available, held up well with use, and apparently, did the job to the required standard. I don't think anyone is saying they are not adequate.

Originally Posted by RobinK

Call me paranoid, but I get extremely suspicious whenever someone with a vested commercial interest in hones waxes lyrical about a certain (type of) hone. Especially when hundreds of advanced hobbyists get along only too well with the (typically much cheaper or much more readily available) alternatives.

I think you and your buddy Paul are minimalists in the wet shaving world. Having experienced the excesses you've become proselytizers. Obsessed with the idea of saving people from themselves lest they spend too much on kit ......... be it razors, hones, brushes &tc.

Acquisition is the attraction that some of us have for this sport. More hones, more razors, more fun. So you are still using the same coticule/thuringan, or whatever, that you've had for years. Great.

Some of us want to try the next one, be it a razor, a brush, or hone. Glad there are entrepreneurial types who furnish us with the opportunity to pursue our passions, even if it is for the love of the buck rather than the love of the sport.

The trans ark Sheffield comment is more rooted in the fact it takes a huge number of laps on a stone that can kill an edge pretty easily and more often than not, the blades are warped a touch or have sketchy geometry you have to work with. It's just a headache. All that said, I consider a trans ark to be one of the ultimate western finishers... I rate it above thuri, at least.

First, there was this:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

There was/is a well known honemiester on this forum, who departed to start his own. Nice guy, heck of a honer, and experienced with a plethora of stones. He once posted that out of 100 coticules, he only found 3 that were worthy of honing razors.

Now, there is this:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

So they were readily available, held up well with use, and apparently, did the job to the required standard. I don't think anyone is saying they are not adequate.

And somehow, the two of them together don't quite add up, do they?

As an aside, not everybody thought that the aforementioned, and self proclaimed, "honemiester" was a nice guy, let alone a heck of a honer. Some thought that he was an abrasive, self-indulgent promoter of his own stones and commercial services. But that is another story entirely. This forum lost at least ten enthusiastic hobbyists over this guy, and that was at least ten too many.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I think you and your buddy Paul are minimalists in the wet shaving world. Having experienced the excesses you've become proselytizers. Obsessed with the idea of saving people from themselves lest they spend too much on kit ......... be it razors, hones, brushes &tc.

Part of what you said is actually true. I do mind if people are led to believe that spending a lot of money is required to get good shaves. Which is not to say that I am not ready to spend premium Euros for high quality products.

However, "proselytizing" works in both directions, doesn't it? Meaning, the point could be made that you and your buddy Nelson here, for example, are obsessed with the idea of making people spend more and more. You won't hear me complain about that. Neither of you have a vested commercial interest in this hobby, so that's all kosher. I've spent the odd, and strictly unnecessary, Euro on Indian cars, Scottish booze, and German razors. Goes with the territory. And really isn't - as you well know - my point.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Glad there are entrepreneurial types who furnish us with the opportunity to pursue our passions, even if it is for the love of the buck rather than the love of the sport.

An interesting argument per se, but missing my point, unfortunately. Said honemiester was already selling hones back when he was still here, insulting and abusing anyone who dared question his ways. Funnily enough, once he was cut off from his Coticule supplies, Coticules suddenly became his favourite bogeyman. Honi soit qui mal y pense, or whatever that is in Russian.

But you're quite right. There are always two ways of looking at things, and that's great. Diversity creates better perspective, and I'm glad we're all able to keep and open mind and discuss things in a civil fashion although we may have differing opinions in certain niche areas of the hobby.

I've been using and collecting/reselling coticules for years. Here are my thoughts:

1) The 'collectible' Old Rock coticules are generally not worth the premium, as they're not necessarily better (and sometimes are worse) than modern coticules. Of course, they usually cost a lot more, so I don't find them worth it. The few of these old coticules that have passed through my hands have all been pretty fast - sometimes they were autoslurrying hones. This makes for a faster honing, but the edges are not always up to par. Again, not worth it.

2) Yes, it is pretty easy (for me) to get a great edge off most coticules. The various veins seem to have different characteristics, and this means that you do have to putz around and modify your technique - depending on the specific hone you have. It's a lot of fun as a hobby, but keeping track of the proper technique to use with a specific hone can be annoying (unless you keep a detailed notebook of what you do with each hone). I still have several excellent coticules, but I usually only use one of them to touch up my razor edges.

3) Can you use one stone from bevel-setting to finishing? Yes, I guess you could. I have never had the patience to stick with this. I have many hones, and I have DMT plates for bevel setting up to 8000 K. They're consistent and fast, and I use them. At that point I switch to my coticules or my Oozuku Namito Karasu.

4) Do coticules compare as finishers to my JNats, vintage Thuris, Charnleys, etc? Yes, sort of. I actually like coticule edges. I have figured out how to get excellent shaving edges from them. However, they do vary from the other hones. Of the ones listed, I have one Charnley that puts a much sharper edge on any razor than any other hone I've tried. However, I still prefer the coticule edge to it.

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Basically, I think any hobbyist straight shaver should buy and try a coticule. I'd suggest getting a La Grise or La Verte vein stone, as both these are slow and easy to learn on and they put lovely edges on a razor. The faster the coticule, the harder it is to learn to finish an edge on it. I've never had a coticule pass through my hands that COULDN'T put an excellent edge on a blade. It just took more or less time to figure it out.

As I said, I've found the varying characteristics of the coticules to be fun to learn.

They're not for everyone. People who have to hone a lot of razors are probably going to prefer to use synthetics all the way, as it's easy to standardize technique with synths. Other people are certainly going to prefer other rocks.

Coticules work for me.

Originally Posted by RobinK

First, there was this:

Now, there is this:

And somehow, the two of them together don't quite add up, do they?

As an aside, not everybody thought that the aforementioned, and self proclaimed, "honemiester" was a nice guy, let alone a heck of a honer. Some thought that he was an abrasive, self-indulgent promoter of his own stones and commercial services. But that is another story entirely. This forum lost at least ten enthusiastic hobbyists over this guy, and that was at least ten too many.

I know who is being referred to there. I bought several razors from him and the edges were not that great - I always had to re-finish them.

I also remember his comments when the whole 'coticule debate' was going on. He basically said that he shouldn't have to modify his honing technique even slightly to hone on the coticules. It didn't seem to matter that people kept saying that that was not the proper way to approach these hones.

My interactions with him were okay. He was abrasively opinionated, but that's pretty common. The edges on his razors were sub-par, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by RobinK

Diversity creates better perspective, and I'm glad we're all able to keep and open mind and discuss things in a civil fashion although we may have differing opinions in certain niche areas of the hobby.

Civil?

I do have a differing opinion.

I am a fan of cotis. As a bevel setter NO tried that and hurt myself. My coti likes Sheffield and doesnt do so great on TIs and the like. That said a coti is what it is. AN 8k finisher. While in the library circa 2009 that was plenty good as a finisher. Today with our hopped up race cars, and multiple master mechanics nothing short of a 16k finisher is worth squat. A BBW is good from 3K thru 8K if you learn your hone. That takes time. Science refers to this as repeatability and reproducible results. Naturals are not evenly dispersed particles over ALL areas of a specific rock. If you have a good one, cherish it and what it is, buttery smooth sharp to 8-10K max. Volkswagens can be speedy but a Ferrari never.

I think a 'good' coticule, in the hands of a 'good' honer, leave a specific type of edge, as in how it feels on the face. The same can be said for Arkansas, Thuringan, or other natural or synthetic stones. I do think a coticule is an adequate stone if the practitioner likes the feel of the edge.

For me it is a stone that follows a 1k, 4k, 8k, progression. For some it is start to finish hone, and I've tried it, didn't feel it was worth the effort, when my alternative method was more than satisfactory.

I cannot speak for Nelson, he is more than capable of speaking for himself, but I do not have 'vested interest' in what anyone buys, at any price point, I don't think Nelson does either.

I suppose that if a person is old enough to need to apply a sharp object to their face, to shave their facial hair, they are old enough to choose what they want to spend their money on. I merely share my personal experience, for better or for worse, on the products I've tried.