Thread: Coti vs Escher

Originally Posted by sharptonn

I am certainly not implying that a Coti is not a finisher. Using many techniques, some can begin, and then arrive at a super-fine edge on them. Certainly this is not the Escher's forte, as it is for finishing/refreshing only
For my limited ability on the coticule, Escher does improve the edge.
Again, YMMV!

So would you refresh a razor on a Nani 12k or an Escher or both?

Originally Posted by Phrank

So would you refresh a razor on a Nani 12k or an Escher or both?

I suppose I would answer with either, OR both, depending upon the razor. Old Sheffield, certainly Escher.
A hard-steel Genco? 12k Nani! A more modern Henckels carbon, 12k to Escher.
Refreshed as they were finished, so to speak. Give them what they like. JMO

Originally Posted by rideon66

I know this is just my judgement and subjective. I had been trying to decide if I wanted to get an Escher or not. So I did a cheek to cheek comparision. I had two razors both around 1800 with similar steal properties from Sheffield. I had one which I honed on my coti ( I am new to this so I would think others could do better) and one that was honed by a razor restorer on an escher. I then shaved with both about two times. Stropped on royal linen and horse hide strop between shaves. Then last night I shaved the right side with the escher blade and the left side with the coti blade.


Conclusion from all use. I cannot tell the difference between the two (maybe the coti glided a bit smoother not sure). So I think I will stick with coti unless the left side grows out quicker than the right. Doesn't seem that way yet though. I guess if I found an Escher cheap Ha ha then I might pull the trigger.

Hope this doesn't cause any arguments. I know others have their preferences I just had to judge for myself.

A great edge is a great edge. Not easy to identify what stones or method was used to get there when shaving.

Yes, a great edge is exactly that. I was very satisfied as I bought and learned my 12k Naniwa. A great finisher, IMO.
The gift of the Escher from a friend is truly appreciated. I probably would never have ponied up for one.
Still, on most old blades, it seems to impart a nice smoothness right away. Don't even waste my time on it for certain hard steels, though. Too lazy to learn the coticule, I suppose.

Indeed, all honing/talk thereof is mostly subjective, JMO.

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Yes, a great edge is exactly that. I was very satisfied as I bought and learned my 12k Naniwa. A great finisher, IMO.
The gift of the Escher from a friend is truly appreciated. I probably would never have ponied up for one.
Still, on most old blades, it seems to impart a nice smoothness right away. Don't even waste my time on it for certain hard steels, though. Too lazy to learn the coticule, I suppose.

Indeed, all honing/talk thereof is mostly subjective, JMO.

Pretty much agree...my 'normal' as far as which hone to use for which blade would be to finish my Sheffield's and older American's and German's with the 8K-Coticule-Escher finishing sequence. The more modern harder steels get finished on the 8K-12K Nani.

Followed by an aggressive/progressive stropping routine these honing sequences always produce the shaving edge that I'm looking for. Yes...subjective to say the least, but this is what works for me. It's not that I don't have any other hones to play with...I do, and I have lots of them...I just find that this is always a quick way to a very keen edge, and I find I'm getting less adventurous, or maybe just lazy in my old age.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

IME, based on what I was taught by a Russian emigre honemiester from Missouri, you don't 'get' an edge on an Escher the way you do with a coticule, or whatever.

When you've got an edge, IOW, a shave ready edge, you finish on an Escher to improve it. Trying to 'get' the edge with an Escher would be a waste of good stone and would take a long time. IMHO.

Same gentleman taught me & if someone hasn't had one of his edges they should & use it for a baseline.

Now, to the OP. You are comparing two very different stones. Escher/Thuri is just a finisher, that's it. If you had a fast coti and finished on thuri, you would have some dang fine edges. Some coti's can give a fine edge too, so I hear. I've been through about a dozen coti's and have yet to find one that will give me the edge I like. That's the key..."I like". I personally like a semi-crisp edge the is very close to the "wicked sharp" feel, just toned down to my taste. This edge requires a light touch when shaving. I've experienced good coti edges, but it's not "what I like". This is your key: What you like. If you are producing quality shaves off your stone, great! Just don't quit learning & experimenting as your edges will only get better.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

Same gentleman taught me & if someone hasn't had one of his edges they should & use it for a baseline.

Now, to the OP. You are comparing two very different stones. Escher/Thuri is just a finisher, that's it. If you had a fast coti and finished on thuri, you would have some dang fine edges. Some coti's can give a fine edge too, so I hear. I've been through about a dozen coti's and have yet to find one that will give me the edge I like. That's the key..."I like". I personally like a semi-crisp edge the is very close to the "wicked sharp" feel, just toned down to my taste. This edge requires a light touch when shaving. I've experienced good coti edges, but it's not "what I like". This is your key: What you like. If you are producing quality shaves off your stone, great! Just don't quit learning & experimenting as your edges will only get better.

Thanks. This is my point I have 4 vintage coticules. All produce a great edge. I would like to find out if I can improve that by following with a thuri and stroping on leather only. From what I know it sounds like that should be possible.

Originally Posted by rideon66

Thanks. This is my point I have 4 vintage coticules. All produce a great edge. I would like to find out if I can improve that by following with a thuri and stroping on leather only. From what I know it sounds like that should be possible.

IME it is possible. With all of these stones and razors it is a matter of trying them out. I've also had the experience of a coticule that didn't seem to deliver the goods at first. I put it away for a few months and came back to it and it worked great. I had to wait until a day when I was really into it and had the patience to keep at it. Not a fast stone, but an extremely fine one. Darn near as fine as any thuringan as it turned out.

Not to mention(As you probably already know!), if you are truly intrigued on Coticules, there is TONS of written word on them.
There is even a dedicated forum for them, I believe. My Coti is quite small. A wonderful, old-mined one with 'Fratelli' scratched into the side. It does seem to work great. It just takes forever, it seems. Someday, I may find a larger one with which to 'hone my skills', so to speak.
I suppose some of us love to hone/experiment. Some of us are in a rush for a shave!

Coticules like any natural stone will vary in hardness and grit. I find that the ideal coticule for one stone honing ( bevel setting to finishing) is one that is both soft (fast) and fine, my veinette for instance meets that criteria.

As an amateur musician, I can draw an analogy with woodwind instruments, the perfect instrument should allow for easy low register and high register playing. A thick bore will play the lower register very well at the expense of the high register and vice-versa. a proficient musicians will adjust his technique based on that.

A coticule that is too soft and not as fine will be great for bevel setting at the expense of finishing and vice-versa.

I have some coticules that are really hard and slow. They are great, but I use them as more as finishers.

In the end, you can get a great edge with all of them but will need to adjust your technique based on the stones properties, hence, learning the stone.