Thread: Naniwa Super Stones

Agreed, and that is why I prefer going from a 1k to a 2k which is still a jump to a grit that is half as small. The reason that I believe that the Gokumyo 20k can handle the jump is that it is quite a fast cutter so I don't think it would take many more strokes on it to remove 8k scratch marks. This even despite the Nortons using a different grit scale. I don't remember, is the US scaled 8k grit size smaller or larger than the Japanese 8k grit size? I never can find that conversion table when I want it.

I'm a huge fan of the Naniwa SS 2k between bevel setting and the Norton 4k.

I think it is a very rarely used option, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one using it.

Interestingly, I was just having this conversation, about what I call a `transition stone. The 1k or whatever grit your bevel setting stone may be, is your grinding/shaping stone. The bevel setter flattens the bevels, sets the bevel angle and gets them to meet in a straight edge. To do so efficiently we use a low grit that quickly accomplishes the tasks, but leaves deep stria and a ragged edge.

The next stone is possibly the most important stone in the progression, especially so for novice honers, it makes the transition from shaping to polishing the bevel and straightening the edge.

Typically we go to a 3-4k-ish stone, but most are either too aggressive or not aggressive enough. The goal here is to remove or flatten the 1k stria and straighten the edge by reducing stria height, while keeping the bevels meeting without breaking off the ragged edge, but reduce it by honing.

This is where many novice honers have difficulty, polishing a bevel that has an edge that is very ragged and the transition stone is not aggressive enough, not flattening the 1k stria and leaving a ragged edge, or too aggressive leaving deep stria and a new ragged edge, and the novice move up in polishing grit and the edge is not completely meeting and has even less a chance of meeting at a higher grit.

The trick is finding the right stone or doing enough laps or fewer laps to straighten the edge. For all but the novice, we can read the edge and know when we have reached that point and/or what is needed to move to the polish stone, the 8k where the edge really become straight.

If the transition stone is not aggressive enough, or too aggressive, more time and effort will be required of the 8k. Usually just removing the 1k stria is enough to move to the 8k polish stone and still have a straight meeting edge.

I can see where a 2k stone can be a very good transition stone, aggressive but not too, and possibly better than the standard 4k, especially for the novice.

I have been testing a Nubatama 4k stone, it is very hard, yet agressive and produces a shallow stria pattern. It easily polishes with an 8K.

Another alternative is to bevel set on a higher grit stone, a 2.3 or 4K stone.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Agreed, and that is why I prefer going from a 1k to a 2k which is still a jump to a grit that is half as small. The reason that I believe that the Gokumyo 20k can handle the jump is that it is quite a fast cutter so I don't think it would take many more strokes on it to remove 8k scratch marks. This even despite the Nortons using a different grit scale. I don't remember, is the US scaled 8k grit size smaller or larger than the Japanese 8k grit size? I never can find that conversion table when I want it.

I think I can kind of confirm your thinking.

My progression goes from Naniwa SS 1K > 3K or 5K > 8K > 12K to Suehiro Gokumyo 20K. The feedback feels to me like through 8K, the stones are working hard, good through the progression. At 12K, feedback seems to disappear and the stone seems to be doing very little work. Once I hit the SG20K, the sensation of feedback from the stone returns. I'll skip the NSS12K on the next straight I hone and see if I can add another data point.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Interestingly, I was just having this conversation, about what I call a `transition stone. The 1k or whatever grit your bevel setting stone may be, is your grinding/shaping stone. The bevel setter flattens the bevels, sets the bevel angle and gets them to meet in a straight edge. To do so efficiently we use a low grit that quickly accomplishes the tasks, but leaves deep stria and a ragged edge.

The next stone is possibly the most important stone in the progression, especially so for novice honers, it makes the transition from shaping to polishing the bevel and straightening the edge.

Typically we go to a 3-4k-ish stone, but most are either too aggressive or not aggressive enough. The goal here is to remove or flatten the 1k stria and straighten the edge by reducing stria height, while keeping the bevels meeting without breaking off the ragged edge, but reduce it by honing.

This is where many novice honers have difficulty, polishing a bevel that has an edge that is very ragged and the transition stone is not aggressive enough, not flattening the 1k stria and leaving a ragged edge, or too aggressive leaving deep stria and a new ragged edge, and the novice move up in polishing grit and the edge is not completely meeting and has even less a chance of meeting at a higher grit.

The trick is finding the right stone or doing enough laps or fewer laps to straighten the edge. For all but the novice, we can read the edge and know when we have reached that point and/or what is needed to move to the polish stone, the 8k where the edge really become straight.

If the transition stone is not aggressive enough, or too aggressive, more time and effort will be required of the 8k. Usually just removing the 1k stria is enough to move to the 8k polish stone and still have a straight meeting edge.

I can see where a 2k stone can be a very good transition stone, aggressive but not too, and possibly better than the standard 4k, especially for the novice.

I have been testing a Nubatama 4k stone, it is very hard, yet agressive and produces a shallow stria pattern. It easily polishes with an 8K.

Another alternative is to bevel set on a higher grit stone, a 2.3 or 4K stone.

This has been my dilemma in a nutshell - I believe I get the bevel set and the razor easily cutting arm hairs, then moving to the 3k or 4k, and feeling like I've taken a step back - suddenly doesn't cut arm hairs or thumb pad test seems to fail.

Consistency seems to be my biggest problem.

The Naniwa SS 2k 10mm, was reasonably priced - so I've ordered it, from reading this incredibly informative thread, I can see the reasoning behind the small step at the bevel set stage, or as I refer to it, lose what little hair I have left stage, both on my arms and my head, and raise my BP to critical. Honing and Zen trance, right, one day...

Been a very fascinating thread - some great ideas and information in this thread - thanks!

When I first heard about the SuperStones from Lynn, I knew that I wanted a complete set. At that time, I had to buy them from two different sources in order to get almost the full set, but I could not find the 2k anywhere in the US. In order to buy the 2k Japanese Naniwa hone, I had to buy it from a source in Germany!

When using synthetics I too use a four stone progression to get to 8K, and find that the middle work is very important.
I use the Naniwa Professional P310-1K, P330-3K then transition to the Naniwa Goken series, Hayabusa 4K then the Fuji 8K.
These two stones are pretty hard, polish above their grit rating IMO, leaves an edge that is very shave ready for an 8K, perfect set-up for my G-20 or other high end finisher.
I sometimes set bevels on the 3K, just depends on how much work needs to be done, the 3K professional to the 4K Hayabusa is that kind of jump from aggressive cutter to polisher, not much work for the 8K after well done work on the Hayabusa 4K.