Thread: Japanese Whetstones and their Terminology

Originally Posted by FAL

Two things I wonder about are, do some guys just get off by their knowing the terminology of jnats when most don't? I sense a Jnat SMugNess, yep, no doubt about it. SMUGGY.

#2 is being that Japan is a little Island and that the land mass does not support megga geology for sharpening stones, why then with the land mass and geology of The Continent of North America, do WE not have More and better natural stones than the Japanese?

What about a Japanese Gent who in America, goes out and finds AmeriNats, Hehe, of every grit and coloration most/Exactly similar in makeup of jnats , just quarry some out and STAMP them as Jnats? Hmmm??? I say this with a smile.

If anyone's being smug it's you. You clearly state you're confused by all the japanese talk, when there is none in this thread. You say you don't want to learn Japanese just to work with jnats. That's like saying you have to learn German to use an escher. It's a stone, you add water and rub a razor on it. Do some research or take a geology class if you want to know why they have great stones and America doesnt. I'm being smug because I looked up answers to my questions as I needed the information. You just want all the answers but have yet to ask any specific questions about anything. Then if there was any hope of you getting a reasonable answer you go and post an idiotic statement like your last one...

I'm pretty sure all of us here would gladly help explain, and answer questions. See ultrasoundguy asked legitimate questions and he will get answers.

Originally Posted by prodigy

If anyone's being smug it's you. You clearly state you're confused by all the japanese talk, when there is none in this thread. You say you don't want to learn Japanese just to work with jnats. That's like saying you have to learn German to use an escher. It's a stone, you add water and rub a razor on it. Do some research or take a geology class if you want to know why they have great stones and America doesnt. I'm being smug because I looked up answers to my questions as I needed the information. You just want all the answers but have yet to ask any specific questions about anything. Then if there was any hope of you getting a reasonable answer you go and post an idiotic statement like your last one...

I'm pretty sure all of us here would gladly help explain, and answer questions. See ultrasoundguy asked legitimate questions and he will get answers.

Well, I am not stupid Nor Idiotic and you seem to have no sensa-yumma (humor) when it comes to Jnats. That's English ya know? Yep, I can be a smartazz too.

I'll not waste any more time with this as Steve is doing some actual helpful reference work to help as you say, Idiotic people like me.

Hmm. Not sure what I said Japanese. But Geology: The landscape is divided up by east and west (like american hip hop- not sure which came first) of Mt Atago. The eastern mines are commonly (though not exclusively or always) finer stones, with the western mines producing largely larger particle stones. of the the Higashi-mono as they're (the eastern mines) referred to as the most famous are Nakayama, Kizuyama, Ozuku, Shobudandi, Narutaki, Ozaki and the western mines like Ohira - (geology didn't know where kyoto was going to be nor does nature do something ALWAYS) all the mines I listed are in the Hon-Kuchi *Naori* which is a more useful geological boundary- there are 3 naori from coarsest to finest- Ai-ishi, Chu-ishi, Hon-Kuchi. from there you have the fact that unlike Arkansas stones- the miners of these stones paid attention- instead of just colors, they realized that the quality of the stone changed from layer to layer as it is a sedimentary deposit. They names the layers, as it helped to record and analyze what type and quality of stone would come from different depths- there are 80 layers. The largest is Tomae with with claim to 48 levels and the smallest is Aka-pin which is one- the top of the mountain. The further down a mountain the sides are excavated, the more pressure was exerted on these stones and the harder they'll be.

Some terms- goma- means sesame seed - it describes the black flecks (inclusions) which can be both toxic or non-toxic that show up as a pattern in some stones

Karasu- means "crow" it refers to the pattern looking like a flock of crows in the sky. The black is composed of mica
Iromono- means "colorful laundry" it refers to the colors from mineral deposition that form (most commonly in softer stratum of tomae)
Asagi- Means yellow, so of course it is used to describe blue and green stones, while grey/ light blue are sometimes refered to as Mizu Asagi as they resemble water
Kiita are yellow, and they are my favorite, unfortunately- they are most all of japans favorite too. The best ones are soft and yet fine and also fast. This hard stone hype is ridiculous and not at all what the best awaseto (finishing stones) for razors and katana were until recently- it's that the soft and yet fine ones are damn near impossible to find that has allowed hard ones to be marketed as the only stones for razors (convenient since that's about all a 5++ is good for! and razors are less than 4% of the market....


I'll start a new thread if you like. There are 10 layers or "seams" with mikawa nagura, and those kanji are there because the greatest razor maker ever (Kosuke Iwasaki) found it damn near impossible to find good nagura, reliably as the togishi (japanese sword polishers) had enjoyed for years- and as a razor maker he noted "If you cannot sharpen well, then people will think you cannot forge, when they get a razor and it does not shave perfectly" So being the perfectionist he was, reigning over all points of production to exercise the most stringent control over his process: he set out with geologist to categorize the 10 seams+ 2 sub divisions to properly identify and ascribe the abrasive quality from one piece to another of mikawa nagura so when you reach in for fine, your hand comes back with a piece of fine, and not "I hope it's this one" So...instead of making fun of the little white rocks with Kanji- be grateful that Iawaski was so thoughtful to categorize these for us razor users. It is still done to this day with the last of the mikawa stock by one man and Iwasaki-San's rubric and the stamps. All the other stamps are silly, my best toishi don't have them- it's marketing.


I'll write that new thread.

edit: it would be very quick and easy to assemble an encyclopedia of pictures for each term if I can use the pictures I have from my site, but I'll have to check what the deal is as they all have watermarks.

Originally Posted by jnats

Hmm. Not sure what I said Japanese. But Geology: The landscape is divided up by east and west (like american hip hop- not sure which came first) of Mt Atago. The eastern mines are commonly (though not exclusively or always) finer stones, with the western mines producing largely larger particle stones. of the the Higashi-mono as they're (the eastern mines) referred to as the most famous are Nakayama, Kizuyama, Ozuku, Shobudandi, Narutaki, Ozaki and the western mines like Ohira - (geology didn't know where kyoto was going to be nor does nature do something ALWAYS) all the mines I listed are in the Hon-Kuchi *Naori* which is a more useful geological boundary- there are 3 naori from coarsest to finest- Ai-ishi, Chu-ishi, Hon-Kuchi. from there you have the fact that unlike Arkansas stones- the miners of these stones paid attention- instead of just colors, they realized that the quality of the stone changed from layer to layer as it is a sedimentary deposit. They names the layers, as it helped to record and analyze what type and quality of stone would come from different depths- there are 80 layers. The largest is Tomae with with claim to 48 levels and the smallest is Aka-pin which is one- the top of the mountain. The further down a mountain the sides are excavated, the more pressure was exerted on these stones and the harder they'll be.

Some terms- goma- means sesame seed - it describes the black flecks (inclusions) which can be both toxic or non-toxic that show up as a pattern in some stones

Karasu- means "crow" it refers to the pattern looking like a flock of crows in the sky. The black is composed of Fe2O3 (mica)
Iromono- means "colorful laundry" it refers to the colors from mineral deposition that form (most commonly in softer stratum of tomae)
Asagi- Means yellow, so of course it is used to describe blue and green stones, while grey/ light blue are sometimes refered to as Mizu Asagi as they resemble water
Kiita are yellow, and they are my favorite, unfortunately- they are most all of japans favorite too. The best ones are soft and yet fine and also fast. This hard stone hype is ridiculous and not at all what the best awaseto (finishing stones) for razors and katana were until recently- it's that the soft and yet fine ones are damn near impossible to find that has allowed hard ones to be marketed as the only stones for razors (convenient since that's about all a 5++ is good for! and razors are less than 4% of the market....


I'll start a new thread if you like. There are 10 layers or "seams" with mikawa nagura, and those kanji are there because the greatest razor maker ever (Kosuke Iwasaki) found it damn near impossible to find good nagura, reliably as the togishi (japanese sword polishers) had enjoyed for years- and as a razor maker he noted "If you cannot sharpen well, then people will think you cannot forge, when they get a razor and it does not shave perfectly" So being the perfectionist he was, reigning over all points of production to exercise the most stringent control over his process: he set out with geologist to categorize the 10 seams+ 2 sub divisions to properly identify and ascribe the abrasive quality from one piece to another of mikawa nagura so when you reach in for fine, your hand comes back with a piece of fine, and not "I hope it's this one" So...instead of making fun of the little white rocks with Kanji- be grateful that Iawaski was so thoughtful to categorize these for us razor users. It is still done to this day with the last of the mikawa stock by one man and Iwasaki-San's rubric and the stamps. All the other stamps are silly, my best toishi don't have them- it's marketing.


I'll write that new thread.

edit: it would be very quick and easy to assemble an encyclopedia of pictures for each term if I can use the pictures I have from my site, but I'll have to check what the deal is as they all have watermarks.

You would be known as ...MASTER
[emoji17]

too kind. Nah. Just a guy that likes sharp things with rocks in his head. I'm checking with mods to see about pics. And Jigane is the soft iron of a blade in blades with 2 types of steel, like katana or kamisori that use a soft iron for the body and a hard iron forge welded for the edge. The hard iron is the Hagane and the hado (ohhh...I see what I did there. that term was unnecessary!) ...is "edge" precisely the same amount of characters. Okay that one I can see being seen as pretentious. Force of habit. My bad.

Kasumi means "mist" and it is the hazy mist contrast you get from great (toishi= sharpening stone) when using the best suited stones for the task. certain layers like Tenjyou suita (beneath aka-pin right up near the top) Do THIS:

I sense a Jnat SMugNess

No, there’s no smugness in honing… just don’t talk crepe about Coticules, or call a slate an Escher, without a notarized label…

WE not have More and better natural stones than the Japanese?

Now you’re talking like Donald Trump, Our rocks are bigger and more beautiful, way more beautiful that your rocks and well make them pay for our rocks…

just quarry some out and STAMP them as Jnats?

Why not? Guys are cranking out 12k slates left and right.

I'll add my two yen. These days, on razors and not only communities, shobu (shobudani, I think Ozaki stones are basically shobu stones) ozuku (ozukuyama) and nakayama (you can't call it just naka i.e. middle) are the most sought after.
Kiita stones are the best overall stones, both fast and fine, very expensive and rare, they are the nice yellow ones.
Asagi, greyish stones are cheaper and if hard but not extremely hard, are good choices too for razors. Bland colored grey-almost black stones might be good ones, but are generally not preferred, and sold cheap (cheaper anyway)
The more rectangular shaped the stones, the better (and better always means more expensive), and if they happen not to have broken corners, the price goes even higher.
Brown/yellow/red, rust colored lines inside the stones is a gamble. It's quite possible that they are toxic inclusions, the ones that damage the edge. I wouldn't buy one with lines like that even if it was a type 30 maruka for 30$. There are also small round spots in stones that are also inclusions.
Before getting a stone, observe all sides or ask for photos of all sides. Inclusions, cracks and stuff that you can't see on the honing surface might make you sorry for giving half a month's salary for a paperweight. Most old stones that were meant to be sold and used for honing have a characteristic cutting pattern. This usually means the stone is not one from people making a living by collecting discarded stones outside of the mines, and these stones are the worst (the discarded ones) Jnats, like almost all natural stones, have the tendency to degrade if left outside, with the sun and rains for some time. A stone might look good, but it will probably brake like a cookie if you try to hone on one, if it's one of the above. And even if that won't happen, something else bad will happen.
All in all, spend half a month's salary buying a stone from an actual reputable seller, after having a conversation with him, telling him what you need and why, and you'll get the best stone you have ever used.
I was a western hones' guy until I tried a Jnat, a Shobu asagi specifically. No Escher, coticule, Charnley or fairy dust on a lapped unicorn horn will offer a better edge.
As for stamps, meh...

Originally Posted by jnats

too kind. Nah. Just a guy that likes sharp things with rocks in his head. I'm checking with mods to see about pics. And Jigane is the soft iron of a blade in blades with 2 types of steel, like katana or kamisori that use a soft iron for the body and a hard iron forge welded for the edge. The hard iron is the Hagane and the hado (ohhh...I see what I did there. that term was unnecessary!) ...is "edge" precisely the same amount of characters. Okay that one I can see being seen as pretentious. Force of habit. My bad. [emoji14]

Kasumi means "mist" and it is the hazy mist contrast you get from great (toishi= sharpening stone) when using the best suited stones for the task. certain layers like Tenjyou suita (beneath aka-pin right up near the top) Do THIS:

Ive always understood that (2 layered metal) as San Mai, or is that for knives only?

Originally Posted by outback

Ive always understood that (2 layered metal) as San Mai, or is that for knives only?

No, that's ni mai (or f(u)tamai?). San mai means literary three layers. A laminating pattern.

Jnats
Thank-you Sir, that is informative to the point and you taught me something.
I dont know if I will go down that rabbit hole, you summarized for the uninformed a pleasant informative explanation.