Thread: How can you tell if you are over honing?

Originally Posted by RezDog

The biggest indicated for me is that I have been honing using a 13K Sigma II. Other than that it is not usually a problem. It is often indicated with a fuzzy edge when inspecting with a loupe and a harsh, prickly shave during the shave test. It is also called micro chipping.

I have never ever had a pleasant shave right off the sigma 13k. The harshest stone there is. But if followed by some CeO (0.3 micron in my case), all is well. Again, in my case, I don't think it's overhoning, but it could very well be micro chipping.

One arm looks bigger than the other.

Some stones are more easily Over-honed, for me the GS20 is one. Personally, I do not like the edge off that stone unless it is stropped with Chrome Oxide, CBN or lots of leather. Too many laps on it will cause the edge to micro-chip, I believe from too thin an edge. It is a high grit, hard, aggressive stone. Pressure plays a big part in what happens to the edge and when combined with an aggressive stone, cuts deep stria at the edge. This is what a lot of the inexpensive stones with soft binders do, they are just too aggressive for razors because of self slurrying.

Many times what is called Over-honing is a similar result, a micro-chipped edge, caused by a bevel that was not fully set. If the bevel is not fully set on a low grit stone, so that the edge is straight and meeting and set later, on a high grit stone with pressure, the edge will crumble and chip, because it was not straight. This is not over-honing, but often gets the blame. New honers are often in a hurry and use more pressure than necessary on all stones in the progression and while stropping. The extra pressure while stropping breaks a thin edge.

As said too many laps on one side also can raise a burr causing a similar condition, where the edge/burr will break off. Too many circles at higher grits, with pressure can be a cause while setting a bevel with a high grit stone.

Either way, no matter the cause or what you call it, the solution is simple, lightly joint the edge to get a straight edge and good solid steel then reset the edge, once the bevels are flat an in the correct plane it should only take a few laps, usually 10-20 to get them meeting again. Just make sure you are honing all the way to the edge and let the stone do the work.

I find jointing an edge after 1k makes a straight and stronger edge, especially for new honers.

Originally Posted by puketui41

One arm looks bigger than the other.

That is very funny.

Over-honing is the opposite of under-honing which is not honed-enough. So in practice a under-honed blade will not cut hairs while an over-honed blade would cut them very easily and the honed-enough blade would shave OK.

For me a over-honed edge is fragile and might give a half a shave and then fail. A honed-enough edge would provide a good-enough shave over and over again while a under-honed edge will not work at all. The difference between a under-honed edge and an over-honed can be as little as 100 strokes or 500 or more, and somewhere in the middle there, between the bevel setter and the over-honed edge is a perfectly comfortable and sharp enough edge.

When honing a razor I am always looking for the sharp-enough edge with the minimum number of strokes, and the I add a few more carefully practiced strokes to just kick it up a notch. The difference between a HHT-4 and HHT-5 is just a few, less than a dozen strokes usually with clear water, the same between HHT's 3&4. Adding 100 more strokes to a razor that is already sharp-enough will not make it sharper and sharper, if it did than 20,000 strokes would make 20,000 times sharper.

Knowing when to stop is the secret, in my opinion, and that point for me is usually just beyond when the previous scratches are removed. If the perfectly bevel set razor can shave arm hair, then the perfect stage of shave ready is not that far beyond. A lot of people do not realize how fast many of these stones are and how few strokes it actually takes to remove the previous grits scratches.

Access to the edge is paramount and a fully set bevel is necessary for your finishing stone to have access to the edge. One way to tell you to move on after your bevel set is shaving arm hair is to use alternate direction angle strokes with each stone, if you can see with a loupe or strong glass the scratches first going this / way, and then with your next stone they are going \ that way then you have removed the previous scratches. If on your final finishing and expensive stone you make straight on strokes like this | and the diagonal \ strokes from before are gone then it is time to strop and test shave or test HHT's. All this is predicated though on your minimizing your stroke count, adding hundreds of strokes screws on top of the geometry of the original perfectly designed bevel set profile changes the game. Like in baseball if you hit a home run, you only get credit for running the bases once, if you go around 2 or 3 times you just look like a fool.

just my opinion,

Alex Gilmore

I'm a little wary of the empirical tests for honing. In fact, I have no idea what HHT 1-5 mean. I occasionally do a HHT for a small audience that will throw a coin or two into a hat.
But this came to me regarding over-honing: Does anyone do a HHT after shaving with a HHT approved razor before re-stropping? And then again after stropping?
Would a fail indicate over-honing?

Overhoning is very rare or impossible for hard steel (approx > 60 HRC). Wire edge is made by forming softer steel during sharpening with greater pressure.
I think wire edge on straight razor is too much pressure during honing and bad steel.

I consider overhoning as sharpening beyond what is needed, which leads to reduced or bad performance with the blade. For instance, a butter knife should be dull so that it will shear the butter, causing it to stick to the knife, and spread the butter evenly. A sharp butter knife is overhoned and will slice through the butter causing it to fall off of the knife and make a scraping sound on the bread as the blade cuts the butter and the bread instead of shearing it to spread.

As for HHT, I only use it as a rough guide that the bevel is set. A fail for me would mean that the bevel isn't set, so under honed.

Look at edge under magnification, if it looks ragged and sort of saw tooth looking you have gone to far or the steel is fragile in that spot. If it looks like that, edge the blade on the corner of the hone and start over, if it comes back try adding a tape layer.

Once I've gotten over 1k I don't think I've ever over honed

Most honers do overhone, from time to time. The result is a fragile edge.

I find that using to much time with finishers of high grid is the problem. There's really no need to go beyond 10k.

The key to every honing session is to use as few strokes as possible. That can be done with fast hones, like naniwas. When the bevel is set the rest of the progression should be very straightforward and seldom require more then 20 - 30 strokes pr stone.

Naturals takes a bit longer, but not much using coticules or thuringians.

Watching gsixguns videos of one hone progression can be and eye opener. Very few strokes, slow and precise. That's what we are going after.

Actually I think it could be fun making a contest of who can hone a razor with fewest strokes :-)

Originally Posted by alx

Like in baseball if you hit a home run, you only get credit for running the bases once, if you go around 2 or 3 times you just look like a fool.

just my opinion,

Alex Gilmore

Ahhh, he who gets base hits will win the game, just don’t stop running in the middle of the bases.
Jobu
[IMG][/IMG]
2015 "ROYALS"