Thread: Please help!

Hi all,

I am new to the world of honing. I have a quick question and hopefully an easy problem to solve. I hone with the naniwa progression that Lynn Abram's uses and end with a Suehiro 20k. I also try to use his technique and I start with a chosera 1000. I have gotten incredibly keen edges off this system. I mean like knife through butter. The problem is that when I go to the other cheek and during the first pass and sometimes at start the next pass across the keenness is already dead and the blade starts to pull and tug. I usually set the bevel until the blade digs into the thumbnail while dragging it across. I am thinking I should take this blade further on the 1000 grit stone. Its a really weird symptom to have. If I over honed I would expect harshness and not cutting properly as described on the forums, plus I heard its hard to over hone. Underhoning I would expect a dull blade to begin with. But this sucker starts excellent but can't seem to hold the edge. I have been able to put a good edge on a Hart steel razor but not my full or extra hollows. I heard these are supposed to be easier to hone! Thank you for any input. I am new to the forum so hello .

Oh and to rule out technique or stropping issues I have bought a blade from Lynn's store and it gave me the best shave of my life, the keenness mine start out with but without the drop off.

I just have some questions to help clear some things up.

1) What stones exactly are in your progression? It kinda sounds like just 1k and 20k...
2) The thumbnail test is a destructive test, are you taking that into account?
3) Are you inspecting progress after bevel set? How so?

It sounds like the edge could be crumbling. If you're having issues with thin razors, you could be too heavy handed. Someone more experienced will probably chime in soon as well.

Loupe?
You might be going to far or you might not be starting with a properly set bevel, as stated.
I too am curious as to what the middle of your progression looks like.

Your bevel is not set correctly. The TNT does not mean much until you are sure that whet you feel means set bevel. The geometry is so thin that the razor will bite in the nail even if the bevels is not quite formed yet.

Originally Posted by dinnermint

I just have some questions to help clear some things up.

1) What stones exactly are in your progression? It kinda sounds like just 1k and 20k...
2) The thumbnail test is a destructive test, are you taking that into account?
3) Are you inspecting progress after bevel set? How so?

It sounds like the edge could be crumbling. If you're having issues with thin razors, you could be too heavy handed. Someone more experienced will probably chime in soon as well.

Originally Posted by RezDog

Loupe?
You might be going to far or you might not be starting with a properly set bevel, as stated.
I too am curious as to what the middle of your progression looks like.

Sure thing. My progression is 1k Chosera, circles like Lynn Abrams says 40 each way and then 25 or so x strokes all with pressure ~2 lbs or lighter. Test thumbnail, if it digs in hard I stop, do 5 strokes more and then move on to the 5K. 40 circles with pressure 40 with weight of the blade. 5-10 x strokes and looking for smoothness/sticking and water cresting over the top. Sometimes I will wash off the metal if its stuck in the stone or lap it again before the 5-10. Move to 8K 7-10 strokes weight of the blade trying to be even. I will test arm hair here to see if its clipping mid way. If it clips mid way here I move on to the 12k. Ten strokes and see if it clips hair smoother. If so I move to the Suehiro 20K. Lynn emailed me about this stone and suggested to try and keep it 15 strokes or less weight of the blade only. I try my best . Most I do is 20ish, here I test the HHT and if it passes whole length of the blade I strop it and test shave.

Results: extremely buttery smooth shave down stroke right side of face. Neck and all. Left side, starts to be less clean and by neck less buttery. Across the face left side starting to pull. Right side obvious pulling but still cutting. ATG edge is broken down.
I visually inspected the blade with a loupe to see that edge is even and scratches are removed. I also eyeball to see. I am relying more on arm hair test though. I think maybe I should try shaving arm hair first before leaving the 1k? I don't know its really weird and frustrating.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Your bevel is not set correctly. The TNT does not mean much until you are sure that whet you feel means set bevel. The geometry is so thin that the razor will bite in the nail even if the bevels is not quite formed yet.

May I ask what you use to test the bevel? I drag the blade against my thumbnail and when it feels like it grabs and doesn't want to let me drag it on I stop usually. Should I be looking for something else? Maybe I should shave test the blade only? Should I do more than 5 laps to undo the damage by the thumbnail? Thank you.

Originally Posted by TJB

May I ask what you use to test the bevel? I drag the blade against my thumbnail and when it feels like it grabs and doesn't want to let me drag it on I stop usually. Should I be looking for something else? Maybe I should shave test the blade only? Should I do more than 5 laps to undo the damage by the thumbnail? Thank you.

I use magnification to monitor the progress of the bevel/edge formation. I can't comment on TNT as I have never used that test, for me visual cues work better.
You should get a razor honed by a pro , preferably finished on the same hone,to have a benchmark for shave ready and try to replicate the result. Another option would be to send a razor out to have the bevel set on it and then finish it yourself to see how it will feel.

First, what is the razor?

Have you had this issue with just one razor or with more?

Are you taping the spine or not?

If you re-hone the blade, however you choose to do it, try doing the two sides of your face in reverse order. Shave the left side before the right. This may be an issue with shaving, or stropping, or honing.

Pressure is fine for the bevel set, as long as it is followed by reduced and then no pressure. Repeat this with lower and then no pressure on subsequent hones.

Try shaving off of the 1k. Really, you can shave off of the 1k if you have set the bevels properly. If it works, only then move up to the 5k and then shave off of that. Repeat on up each grit. This will teach you what each hone actually accomplishes.

Originally Posted by Utopian

First, what is the razor?

Have you had this issue with just one razor or with more?

Are you taping the spine or not?

If you re-hone the blade, however you choose to do it, try doing the two sides of your face in reverse order. Shave the left side before the right. This may be an issue with shaving, or stropping, or honing.

Pressure is fine for the bevel set, as long as it is followed by reduced and then no pressure. Repeat this with lower and then no pressure on subsequent hones.

Try shaving off of the 1k. Really, you can shave off of the 1k if you have set the bevels properly. If it works, only then move up to the 5k and then shave off of that. Repeat on up each grit. This will teach you what each hone actually accomplishes.

Ok so if I end the 1k stone without pressure should I skip the 40 circles with pressure if I move to the 5K and just do the light ones? or just X strokes and loupe it until the scratches are gone with no pressure?

Oh and the razor is a Boker silver steel and another Ralph Aust that i have laying around.

No, you can do pressure on the 5k, as it will speed up the removal of the 1k scratches, but you do need to follow it with lower and no pressure strokes.