Thread: Finisher after 12k stone

Originally Posted by Badgister

Some seriously good advice there. A surprisingly great edge can be achieved with as little as one or two stones , maybe some paste, and most importantly, good plain old stropping. Many beginners seems to fall in the trap of buying way to many stones and not focusing enough on learning the simple basics in order to achieve shave-ready edges consistently.

There IS a lot of good advice here. But the OP did ask what most of us prefer beyond 12k. The advice is sound but at the same time rather....conflicted? There's another popular thread going on right now about Eschers and would everyone buy one all over again. The general consensus is that they would. If you ask about the Suehiro 20k, the consensus is that it's awesome. Then there's the Jnat crowd and the Shapton 30k crowd. Yes the advice is good but a lot of us are not living by that "you don't need anything beyond an 8k" theory. Yes, learn to get the most out of your 12k but when you're ready there are others to consider.

Depends on the steel in the blade. I will go with a Suehiro 20k then chromium oxide or Escher. I like the Escher better then my Ark Surgical black because its faster but on some blades the Ark will smooth it out better.

To add my two cents, there is the weird and at the same time kind of logical idea that, if a shave of a 12k stone is better than a shave off an 8k stone, then a stone finer than the 12k will definitely be more enjoyable than that 12k.
It's not really true, we are talking about steel after all; the size of its carbides is limiting the edge refinement. It's not glass where the "edge" can be a single molecule, steel has its limits, and they are not far from the "12k". Take the Gokumyo 0.5 micron for example; it refines the edge, and looks awesome under a strong microscope, that is until you strop the edge on plain leather.
The number of grit is not equal to the enjoyment of your shaving experience, not to mention that there are no natural stones above that "12k", yet most of us arguably prefer these "coarser" natural stones over the super fine man made ones.
In the end, I would assume, no offense, what you are looking for isn't a stone with smaller particles but something that either makes your shave more enjoyable, or wonder if there is such a thing, trying to express it with grit numbers. I've been there, and again, I'd assume most of us have been there. What I would suggest you to do is, find a gentleman that lives close to you, offer him a cup of coffee, and ask him to try his stones.
You'll save a lot of time, money, and also gain a lot of experience this way.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

What I would suggest you to do is, find a gentleman that lives close to you, offer him a cup of coffee, and ask him to try his stones.
You'll save a lot of time, money, and also gain a lot of experience this way.

What fun is that? I have a 20k so I use it, I love the edge and shave from it, I also have a SB, Esher, Coti's, Translucent, you name it I have it other than j-nat's. If I had to do it over I would do the same all over again, because its part of the hobby as much as buying razors.

What I have not figured out for myself is what to do after 20k, sometimes nothing, sometimes leather, sometimes linen+leather.

In 10 years we will be asking what to use after 40k synthetic stones.

Originally Posted by sidmind

What fun is that? I have a 20k so I use it, I love the edge and shave from it, I also have a SB, Esher, Coti's, Translucent, you name it I have it other than j-nat's. If I had to do it over I would do the same all over again, because its part of the hobby as much as buying razors.

What I have not figured out for myself is what to do after 20k, sometimes nothing, sometimes leather, sometimes linen+leather.

In 10 years we will be asking what to use after 40k synthetic stones.

That's HAD. And, I too would do it all over again because of the HAD.
The gokumyo 20k (which is 0.5 micron, as fine as the Shapton 30k; microns, grit, the conversion chart and the shaving qualities of these stones depend from company to company) is offering a finer edge than today's steel can hold, it degrades in such a way, the shave does not become too uncomfortable.
These carbides that make the iron, steel have a specific size. If you go below it, the edge will not hold. And, that's what happens with today's steels. You can go a bit beyond the point of 10XX steel's limit with the addition of Vanadium which forms both the strongest and smallest carbides (heat treating them right is like rocket science) and this Vanadium steel can take a finer edge, but again it has limits. Small quantities of Cr, Mo or W can also form smaller carbides, but not like the Vanadium carbides.
Of course, to achieve these tiny sized carbides, the quenching the temperature must drop seriously fast; it depends from steel to steel of course, but let's take a simple one, 1070something without additional carbide formers, and heat it until it stops being paramagnetic. If you quench in oil, the hardness will be lower with bigger carbides, which means, it won't take the absolute edge BUT the chance of failure, broken things is really low. If you quench it in water, the carbides will be smaller, and the hardness higher than that the oil, but there is a serious risk of braking the tool/razor, you will definitely have many, probably more broken ones than healthy (for example, on Japanese sword, traditional quenching on water approximately 7 out of 10 swords were braking or forming cracks; today all the China made ones are quenched in oil, with or without hamon).
And if you want to take things up a notch, you can quench in something crazy, like liquid nitrogen (definitely wouldn't advise it, you'll likely end up in hospital without specialized protection). If you do, one in maybe 1000 razors will survive probably (I don't know the number), the carbides will be extremely small, and the hardness will be above 70RC, again I'd guess. On that case, it will be far more fragile than glass, and if you drop it, it will become like, powder, but these carbides will be the smallest possible.
So, say that we do achieve this structure with tiny carbides, extreme hardness, and can take the 0.5 or 0.01 micron edge.
Aside from the chance of micro-chipping, razors are made to cut hair. An edge as fine as this would definitely shave hair, but just like hairs can be cut, our skin too has tiny imperfections on which the razor will bite into; the result won't be as awesome as expected, and the edge will be harsher than an 1k stone.
Both metallurgy and honing, are science, the results can be guessed beforehand, and then confirmed. I expect, the classic razor, with the classic steel is all we'll ever need, without advanced Cermet blades or CPM 10V and other fancy and extremely expensive razors. These ultra high carbon high alloy steels can take a finer edge, but do we really need it?
Get a good classic razor with an Escher/Coticule/ quality Jnat and you'll be fine. I expect in 100 years, the same conversations will still be taking place.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

I expect in 100 years, the same conversations will still be taking place.

In 100 years we will be collecting Gold Dollars and Pakistan razors, LOL

Originally Posted by sidmind

In 100 years we will be collecting Gold Dollars and Pakistan razors, LOL

That does make you wonder doesn't it? How were these currently popular brands regarded in their day? I don't see Gold Dollars ever becoming a collector's item, but then again someone might have said the same about Wade & Butcher razors 100 years ago.

Originally Posted by sidmind

In 100 years we will be collecting Gold Dollars and Pakistan razors, LOL

Indeed, in 100 years we will keep collecting gold dollars. After all, who doesn't want to have a couple or a dozen?


As for Pakistani razors, that could very well be true; increase VAT in EU to 200%, next thing you know a region in Pakistan changes its name into Thiers or Solingen.

Originally Posted by Marshal

That does make you wonder doesn't it? How were these currently popular brands regarded in their day? I don't see Gold Dollars ever becoming a collector's item, but then again someone might have said the same about Wade & Butcher razors 100 years ago.

Judge Henry T. Lummus in his article "Collecting straight razors" in 1922. Wrote something to the effect that Joseph Rodgers razors were of poor quality and not worth collecting. He did however have some Rodgers in his collection.

Originally Posted by Hacker7

Judge Henry T. Lummus in his article "Collecting straight razors" in 1922. Wrote something to the effect that Joseph Rodgers razors were of poor quality and not worth collecting. He did however have some Rodgers in his collection.

I don't have the book, however I do recall someone else having said it different. Lummus did not think Frederick Reynolds razors were worth owning, that they were substandard. I have no idea which of us is correct, but the point is that someone of some notoriety has made sundering remarks of a know manufacture from days gone by. The brand is currently popular, and leaves us to wonder what will be the favor and what will be frowned upon in days to come.