Honing and the temperature of a stone

This idea popped in my head while I was contemplating removing a vintage coticule from its wooden box. I'm planning on keeping it to store the stone (hence no brake cleaner or rubbing alcohol), but want to lap and use it out of the box. I was reading threads on putting it in the oven as well as hot water and have not seen someone have an issue (yet, I only read 5 threads so far). I'm still debating the pros and cons of each and weighing that against my inherent laziness.

However, I was thinking about what if I was dumb enough to grab a hot coticule from the oven and just start whaling away on it with some razors. Would the binder stone expand around the garnets? Would they expand more than the binder and break loose? Would absolutely nothing of significance change and this thread will be rendered mute in 5 posts or less? What about a frozen stone? Shall I start freezing my 1k to gain some benefit?

Bonus posts on anyone have issues with either the water method or oven method would be cool. EDIT: I'm referring to the methods of REMOVING A STONE GLUED IN A BOX. Since confusion is becoming apparent.

If you freeze a water hone that is porous to water, unless it is completely dried out first, you will end up with many small hones.

I doubt if heat at the scale we are talking about would have any significant impact on honing as I would assume that the temperatures would be too slight to have any effect. These are experiments I am not willing to try!

Why on earth would you want to put a coticule in either hot water or an oven? I've read some pretty insane theories from enthusiastic amateurs on many different forums, but this one made me stop and look twice. I won't even touch the frozen stone comment.

If you can't hone a razor with a stone as it came out of the ground, changing its temperature is not going to change that.

Only Put It In The Oven If You Plan On Eating It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ha............If You Have Stones To Waste Try It Let Us All Know How It Turns Out For Ya,,,,,,But Everything About This Spells Bad Idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ty

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Originally Posted by sqzbxr

Why on earth would you want to put a coticule in either hot water or an oven? I've read some pretty insane theories from enthusiastic amateurs on many different forums, but this one made me stop and look twice. I won't even touch the frozen stone comment.

If you can't hone a razor with a stone as it came out of the ground, changing its temperature is not going to change that.

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This was a crack pot idea while researching how to remove a stone that is glued to a box. Removing the stones in these methods has been done by people in the past.

Am I going to actually hone on a oven fresh stone? No, see the laziness comment above. Is this an insane theory? Ehh, depends on your definition of insane.

However, There is a wide reach of our forum. I'm sure those in Thailand are honing on warmer stones than me in the winter. Why does this matter? As I work with a company that has to deal in microns at times, I understand that small temperature changes can affect things significantly in certain situations. Maybe a 50 degree change one way or the other could influence a stone for better or worse depending on the requirements of the stone.

I would first sprinkle some cheese on top, then 10' at 275°C et voilà !

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Originally Posted by Addison

Only Put It In The Oven If You Plan On Eating It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ha............If You Have Stones To Waste Try It Let Us All Know How It Turns Out For Ya,,,,,,But Everything About This Spells Bad Idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ty

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Not wasting stones. Trying to remove one from a box and had a crack pot idea that I'm just trying to discuss and not actually perform.

I was not being dismissive, but I don't think the relatively trivial temperature change would significantly alter the condition of the binder or the garnets. A temperature increase might cause a differential expansion of one relative to the other but I would think it would have to be a much greater temperature.

If you do decide to put cheese on that warm stone, you might as well add bacon too!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I was not being dismissive, but I don't think the relatively trivial temperature change would significantly alter the condition of the binder or the garnets. A temperature increase might cause a differential expansion of one relative to the other but I would think it would have to be a much greater temperature.

If you do decide to put cheese on that warm stone, you might as well add bacon too!

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@Utopian; I know you weren't, I've noticed your scientifically oriented mind in the past and I was hoping you'd chime in. I had the same thoughts on the levels of expansion, but figured I would post the arbitrary thought process anyways. Aaaaaand now I want bacon.

I'm putting odds at 28.3% that someone on this forum has either honed while the heat was broken or used a hot stone for some reason.

Taters On The Side,,,,, When All Said & Done You Had A Great Breakfast Probably Still Have A Stone In The Box!!!!!!!!!!!! But Hey You Gave It Your Best Shot!!!!!!!!Ty

well, there just might be some effect, the viscosity of water lowers with temperature so there will be less of a lubricating effect from the water film..., and if you get the water boiling you will get this two phase turbulent film in between your stone and razor I'll bet it will cary away the removed metal instantly ;)

I only once removed a stone from a box but it was already broken beforehand so I did not put much thought in it I think I did use hot water eventually but that was more to remove the dirt on it

If you want to find some reading to put yourself to sleep use this as your search phrase.

Coefficients of Linear Thermal Expansion garnets

Rocks are not as much brutes as you may think. Most are chock full of internal flaws and cracks of all sizes and shapes. Temperature change and extremes are the main way nature splits rock apart.

I wouldn't be heating or freezing any rock I cared about.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Rocks are not as much brutes as you may think. Most are chock full of internal flaws and cracks of all sizes and shapes. Temperature change and extremes are the main way nature splits rock apart.

I wouldn't be heating or freezing any rock I cared about.

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This was my initial thought. A cold stone is going to be a brittle stone. If it's cold enough water will freeze and more or less prevent any honing action at all. Or worse, water in the pores will freeze, swell, and cause the stone to split.

Heat tends to cause things to expand, so in a sense that seems counterproductive since we typically want smaller particles not larger. Something like a coticule made of garnets as our cutting material and who knows what as a binder could have differing rates of expansion between the materials contained in the stone. This is likely to cause it to split. Even on the off chance that all materials contained in the stone expanded at the same rate, the stone will heat from outside inward. Unless it's heated slow and even, the exterior may expand differently to the interior or not be able to handle how much the interior swells, and you can see where my mind is wandering here.

Not to mention that water will inevitably evaporate faster at higher temperatures. Taking into account that people do live in differing climates, one also has to remember that most folks hone inside where there is some level of climate control as opposed to outside at the mercy of the elements. I think the worst case scenario would be folks in a desert/tropical area living without AC, so maybe 20 to 40 degrees fahrenheit hotter than your living room (for those used to Celsius 11 to 22 degrees hotter than your living room). In all honesty I don't think that's hot enough to make a large difference in performance.

Has any one here tried vinegar to remove glue?

Actually the best way to remove glue or any really sticky substance is with some cooking oil. Whether you want oil on your hone is another issue.

I store my hones in the garage and it's 115° out there right now and often gets hotter. I think that most adhesives will loosen enough at around 150° to do what you need to do (as long as it's not epoxy or CA).

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Originally Posted by 32t

If you want to find some reading to put yourself to sleep use this as your search phrase.

Coefficients of Linear Thermal Expansion garnets

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I'm familiar with thermal expansion, many classes in my studies required their use. I'll probably read abunch during my next poop lol.

As far as thermal shock, anything can shatter depending on the thermal gradient. That's not really part of the scope of my question.

My thought is that, with heat, a binder may expand at a larger rate than the abrasive. Freezing a stone would have to be done dry, obviously.

Heat worked great in removing the stone. I heated the oven to cook a pizza and then left it open until it was near or at a car in the sun temp. Did 1 cycle of 5 minutes then 2 cycles at 10 minutes. I forced the stone too much and some bbw stayed stuck to the bottom of the box. Will lap the glue off and post pictures.

I think it would be interesting to take that extra chunk of bbw and put it in a glass of vinegar to see how it reacted. Wood working sites say to use the vinegar to loosen joints. My concern would be how the acid would affect the stone.

The worst that would happen is that you would have a bunch of garnets rolling around the bottom of the glass!;)

I thought plaster was often used to hold those old stones in wooden boxes. I'm reading that solutions on the basic end of the PH scale dissolve plaster. Such as warm water with lots of baking soda. You could check if it's plaster holding it in there and search how to dissolve it.

It is probably .5 mm thick at best, I will do that test with the cleaned out bits.

The stone is out, but it was amber colored and gooey. The box is dated 1912, if authentic I think glue would be fairly easy to come by. Plaster seems like it would be a more vintage method.

I have remove a lot of vintage stones from boxes and only encountered a few that were glued.

Most are “Glued” with slurry and swarf. Try tapping down on the end of the box, one end then the other, lite taps.

If it is a vintage stone, and it is glued, it is probably hide glue and water soluble. Soak it in water for a few minutes.

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Originally Posted by 32t

I think it would be interesting to take that extra chunk of bbw and put it in a glass of vinegar to see how it reacted. Wood working sites say to use the vinegar to loosen joints. My concern would be how the acid would affect the stone.

The worst that would happen is that you would have a bunch of garnets rolling around the bottom of the glass!;)

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Coticules are unaffected by mild acid. As a matter of fact, the acid test is the means for differentiating between a natural and a man-made coticule made from coticule dust. The synthetic coticule will bubble in reaction to acid while the natural stone will not.

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Originally Posted by dinnermint

This was a crack pot idea while researching how to remove a stone that is glued to a box. Removing the stones in these methods has been done by people in the past.

Am I going to actually hone on a oven fresh stone? No, see the laziness comment above. Is this an insane theory? Ehh, depends on your definition of insane.

However, There is a wide reach of our forum. I'm sure those in Thailand are honing on warmer stones than me in the winter. Why does this matter? As I work with a company that has to deal in microns at times, I understand that small temperature changes can affect things significantly in certain situations. Maybe a 50 degree change one way or the other could influence a stone for better or worse depending on the requirements of the stone.

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So the stone didn't make it out of the box completely? Oh no. I use hot water for stones or a hairdryer for things which can't get wet. Hot water also works really well for the naniwa stones if you want to seperate them from their stands. But keep it mainly on the bottom of the plastic part, not on the synthetic hone.

Let me clarify, the stone is 99.999% whole. Just a thin layer of bbw stayed on the bottom of the box. I started out doing cycles in hot water from my tap. There was significant glue on the edges of the hone, with some thin places so I could gauge how well the water was working. After three hours and gallons of water (don't like wasting too much water) there was no progress to the visible glue. So, after I ate and let the oven cool to what felt like 100ish deg F, I popped it in and let it warm up. Let me be extra clear, the heating element was NOT on. I did this because I didn't want too much heat going into the stone and the temp is iffy to control at best. I did 5,10,10 minute intervals to warm up the glue. If I had done an extra 10, I may have saved 100% of the stone. It took 10 minutes to sand off the glue and get the missing areas removed with 320 grit 3M pro paper. Here are some pictures.

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Since Utopian reminded me about the acid test and man-made coticules, there'll be a little test with goo-gone on the remainder of the glue in the box and it's effect on the bbw and wood. Probably will be fine.

Hey How Was The Cheese & Bacon ??? No Really Nice Job Way To Put The Effort Into It,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Ty

Well it's a beautiful coti, I look forward to hearing the results.

Thanks guys, I was nervous that it may have been glued because the BBW was gone. It's intriguing because it looks significantly different from my current (1x4ish) bbw and my newer coti. I'm hoping I can make some time before the meet to try it out. Might have to wait until Saturday to EDIT:hone it out.

An interesting note about this stone. If you look reeeaaaaally carefully, you can notice a dark edge to the honing surface of the coti side. Especially in the top right corner of the last photo. When lapping, I noticed it was convexly dished as opposed to the typical concave. I will probably lap this completely flat, but will probably leave some color of the glue on the sides. Cause history reasons and I'm a dork.

Also, what is nearly impossible to photo, is the nearly holographic swirls on the face of the coti. It is hard to see by eye even. Will try day light.

When and where did you get that one?

Came in the mail yesterday from the bay. It seemed reasonably priced and I put a fairly high bid in. I was also fairly intoxicated, as I was on vacation with my friends from high school. No regrets lol.

Nice stone dinnermint! I'm glad you were able to get it free from the box. Enjoy!

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Originally Posted by dinnermint

Thanks guys, I was nervous that it may have been glued because the BBW was gone. It's intriguing because it looks significantly different from my current (1x4ish) bbw and my newer coti. I'm hoping I can make some time before the meet to try it out. Might have to wait until Saturday to break it out.

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No, no, no!!!

Never use the word "break" in reference to a hone!

Uh oh. Did I just release bad mojo into the hone ether? I'm going to go edit that post now