Thread: smooth vs sharp - how to

Originally Posted by sloanwinters

I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps?

I would like to clear up some of the small details, Glen and the other guys have done a fine job as usual.

First the 12K vs 16K comment. I do not know what manufactures 12K you have, but the most common one I can think of is the Naniwa 12K SS. The most common 16K hone I can think of is the Shapton 16K Glass hone.

Each manufacturer has their own classification and numbering system. Let's drop down to the 8K hone in both Naniwa SS and Shapton Glass.... the size of the grit in each of these hones are likely not the same size, so substituting one for the other will NOT give you the exact same effect. It gets worse when you find out that different product lines from the same manufacturer may not be identical to each other as far as the grit size is concerned. The main purpose of those 4K or 16K labels is to tell you which hone to use next in a progression (when it is from the same manufacturer and in the same product line), so you can tell them apart. In the Shapton Glass range, there is a prominent number on the bottom of every hone they make. Naniwa marks their hones quite faintly on the side of each hone, but instead make each hone in a different color, making it obvious (once you memorize the color/claimed grit size).

Going back to the 12K Naniwa SS vs 16K Shapton Glass question, I have both and I cannot really tell any difference between them, other than the feel while honing. Naniwa SS hones feel softer than Shapton Glass hones and sometimes I prefer one over the other, but I wouldn't use the 16K after the 12K.

On the other hand, Naturals are not *better* but they ARE different, and I might follow either of those synthetic stones with one of my several naturals. Which natural I select will vary on a whim.... no real reason other than I want to use this hone or that today. Some gents find one of their natural hones seems to work better on a particular razor.... I can't really say I find that to happen myself, but I do find the natural hones, while often much slower cutting than synthetics, seem to offer a more pleasing edge to shave with.

So... assuming you have a 12K Naniwa SS, and you wish to venture out to try something different, I'd suggest you try a natural hone of some sort. It won't be cheap, but stones like the Coticule, Zulu Grey, Japanese Naturals from a trusted seller etc. would all be a good next choice. Beware though.... just because you purchase X stone, does not mean it WILL work for sure..... they are made by nature..... each stone is an individual, and all have their personalities and some just don't work no matter what you do. The safest in my mind is probably a Japanese Natural, but only if purchased from a trusted seller who offers to take the hone back if it does not work out for you. These gents will often have tested the stone before sale and can guide you along after purchase.... and they stand behind their stones if it happens you get one you just don't like. But do not forget, this kind of service also comes at a price... it is a fair price, but it IS a price..... These will not be your Ebay bargains.

Beware of ANY natural stone where a grit rating is offered.... there simply is no such thing.... they were created by random chance and nobody knows what is in them... we only know roughly what we can see on the surface that is exposed. We may know the primary ingredient that is harder than steel and thus does the honing, but particle size and binder hardness is all random. Even two natural hones cut side by side out of the ground may be wildly different or on the other hand, they might be near identical. That is the lure for many of us honers.... the search for that elusive hone. Even funnier..... someone buys a hone, spends untold hours trying to figure the hone out, gives up and sells it, only for the next owner to exclaim it's the greatest hone ever..... because they figured it out.

I've had a love/hate relationship with my big Coticule..... it just did not seem to create the edge I was looking for. 10 years later, a local chap whom I got going in the straight razor madness, picked up an old stone at an antique shop for $10 or something like that and when it was cleaned up, it was clearly a Coticule hone. He used that hone in ways I never did, and offered a honed blade to me for my "opinion" on his edges. My jaw hit the floor... it was the nicest edge I'd ever shaved with! After hearing how he was honing the edge, I gave the same treatment to one my my razors on my disgusting, I should really sell it, Coticule. Today, the stone is NOT FOR SALE! So.... be prepared for a learning curve, and don't be afraid of a hone someone has given up on.... it *could* be a great hone in YOUR hands.... But, if you see a hone offered for $10 and it's claimed to be 12K or 16K or 20K, and it's a natural stone and it's listed as brand new..... you should be seeing warning flags. It might still be a good hone... but I'd look at them carefully before pulling out my wallet. I know there are Chinese 12K stones being offered, and opinions on them vary.... I have never tried one, so I cannot offer an opinion either way, but the consensus seems to be that they may be worth the price they are offered for, but they are not a $1000 Jnat being sold for $50.

GSsixguns tagline says it all:

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"
Very Respectfully - Glen


Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "Why can't I ever write a *SHORT* reply" Zero


[Edit]. My Coticule (8" x 3") seems to sharpen an edge quickly, but if I want the uber smooth edge my friend Danny showed me how to get, it will take about 200 super light laps after my 12K on absolutely pure clean water. "A few laps" won't do anything on pretty much any finishing hone.

euclid and kaptain - thank you both for taking the time to offer up your knowledge and experience. much appreciated.

yes i have the naniwa 12k. i also have a coticule and zulu grey as well. but have been hesitant to switch from synthetic to natural in my progression.

Originally Posted by sloanwinters

euclid and kaptain - thank you both for taking the time to offer up your knowledge and experience. much appreciated.

yes i have the naniwa 12k. i also have a coticule and zulu grey as well. but have been hesitant to switch from synthetic to natural in my progression.

All I can say is give it a try, assuming you have at least 2 razors! I do all my work on ugly junkers.... razors that will NEVER be good looking, but have plenty of life left, no issues other than unsightly pits and tarnish. Hone up what you consider a great edge on the 12K, then move on to either the Coti or the Zulu, don't be afraid to spend some time doing ultralight laps.... Most of my naturals seem to take at least 100 laps to be noticeable, but then even the fast synthetics seem slower for me than for other gents, so perhaps I'm just very light handed when I hone?

I will say though.... I seem to be having some good luck using a hard knit wool material stretched over a piece of wood and treated with some ChromeOx paste. After I'm convinced I've gone far enough with a natural, I will do 5 to 7 laps on the wool/CrOx to hopefully remove any faint wire edges that *may* have developed, and then go back to the hone for another 10 super light laps. Dry and strop... I generally only use my finest leather strop after a hone job.... after the shave, I do 10 very light laps on a linen strop and place the razor on one of the floor vents as we have forced air heating, but the fan runs 24/7 all the time so it filters the air.... it makes a very convenient place to dry a razor. I just have to remember to keep the door to the room closed so the cat doesn't bat it around!

When it's time to shave again, I give the razor 30 to 50 laps on leather.

The use of Crox on wool stems from my reading a translated book written by Kousuke Iwasaki.

I'll quote a few relevant paragraphs, and as I'm over 50, apparently I have withered arms?!?!? :

4. Removing the False Edge
In order to remove the very fine false edge create by the Honyama hone, you need a hone with
particles finer than those of the Honyama. Many people believe this false edge can be removed with
a leather or linen strop, but in reality, if you look closely it doesn’t work that way. In this situation, I
bring out a man-made abrasive made for use in mirror-polishing, called “Green Powder”
(Chromium Oxide). Mix this with water and spread it onto the previously-prepared Raxa hone. Thevolume should be very small, just enough to turn the cloth slightly green is plenty. There are
undoubtedly people who tend to over apply, but it’s best not to use very much.
Green Powder is far and away finer than Honyama grit particles, so it is well suited to removing the
false edge created by the Honyama. On the above described Raxa hone, hone your razor or
Kamisori spine-leading in a V pattern. Apply light pressure along the edge, and do 3 laps (6 strokes
total); there are some inexperienced people who, because they apply pressure to the spine, fail to
remove the false edge and so they will need to repeat this another 6 times or so. However, if the
false edge is very, very fine, one or two passes might be sufficient.
The time needed should only be about 10 seconds or so. If you check this edge under a microscope,
you will see a beautiful straight line along your edge, which is enough to impress anyone.
After this, it’s often possible to use the razor without even stropping. There should be absolutely no
irritation or pain from it. However, somehow the edge might feel slightly “heavy”. For
inexperienced women hairdressers or older people in their fifties with withered arms, I recommend
being satisfied with this.

And for wool substrate, I substituted some nice 100% hard knit wool (the kind used for dress pants) from my local tailor, but here again Iwasaki explains what a Raxa hone is:

Raxa Hones (Pasted strop) [“Raxa” is from Portuguese, meaning “wool cloth”. Apparently, the
pronunciation in Japan is “Rasha.”--JDR]
Make a Raxa hone by sticking a scrap of wool cloth onto a small wooden board with tacks. [In the
original, he recommended a Kamaboko Board, a small wooden platter used in cooking and serving
a steamed fish paste, it's about 15x5 cm.--JDR]. Onto this, spread a mixture of water and the
abrasive called "Green Powder" (Chromium Oxide). Use this to remove the extremely fine "false
edge" left by the honyama hone. I've tried using wood or the back of a leather strop with this
powder, but with each one I found that it caused some chipping on the blade, so it's best not to use
either.

Once you start chasing the *perfect* edge, it becomes a fascinating but at times tedious journey. The ugly truth is that you cannot *buy* your way to the perfect edge, you can only practice your skills until you achieve it. As they used to say in stock car racing; "Run whatcha brung, you'll never win a race with that car you can only dream of owning". You already have all the hones you need to achieve an excellent edge, you just need practice.

If you know how to produce a "decent" edge, you'll always have fine shaves with your other razor(s) while you search for that better edge. It never hurts to bring your regular razor along when you go to test your freshly honed super edge.... (sometimes, you may have to go back to ol' reliable, and if you brought it along.... it's easy). And once you are spoiled by the ultimate edge... you'll be honing before every shave, trying to re-create that last perfect shave (or worse, trying to improve on it). It never ends.......<sigh>


Regards

Christian

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

All I can say is give it a try, assuming you have at least 2 razors! I do all my work on ugly junkers.... razors that will NEVER be good looking, but have plenty of life left, no issues other than unsightly pits and tarnish. Hone up what you consider a great edge on the 12K, then move on to either the Coti or the Zulu, don't be afraid to spend some time doing ultralight laps.... Most of my naturals seem to take at least 100 laps to be noticeable, but then even the fast synthetics seem slower for me than for other gents, so perhaps I'm just very light handed when I hone?

I will say though.... I seem to be having some good luck using a hard knit wool material stretched over a piece of wood and treated with some ChromeOx paste. After I'm convinced I've gone far enough with a natural, I will do 5 to 7 laps on the wool/CrOx to hopefully remove any faint wire edges that *may* have developed, and then go back to the hone for another 10 super light laps. Dry and strop... I generally only use my finest leather strop after a hone job.... after the shave, I do 10 very light laps on a linen strop and place the razor on one of the floor vents as we have forced air heating, but the fan runs 24/7 all the time so it filters the air.... it makes a very convenient place to dry a razor. I just have to remember to keep the door to the room closed so the cat doesn't bat it around!

When it's time to shave again, I give the razor 30 to 50 laps on leather.

The use of Crox on wool stems from my reading a translated book written by Kousuke Iwasaki.

I'll quote a few relevant paragraphs, and as I'm over 50, apparently I have withered arms?!?!? :



And for wool substrate, I substituted some nice 100% hard knit wool (the kind used for dress pants) from my local tailor, but here again Iwasaki explains what a Raxa hone is:




Once you start chasing the *perfect* edge, it becomes a fascinating but at times tedious journey. The ugly truth is that you cannot *buy* your way to the perfect edge, you can only practice your skills until you achieve it. As they used to say in stock car racing; "Run whatcha brung, you'll never win a race with that car you can only dream of owning". You already have all the hones you need to achieve an excellent edge, you just need practice.

If you know how to produce a "decent" edge, you'll always have fine shaves with your other razor(s) while you search for that better edge. It never hurts to bring your regular razor along when you go to test your freshly honed super edge.... (sometimes, you may have to go back to ol' reliable, and if you brought it along.... it's easy). And once you are spoiled by the ultimate edge... you'll be honing before every shave, trying to re-create that last perfect shave (or worse, trying to improve on it). It never ends.......<sigh>


Regards

Christian

You may have withered arms but at least you aren't an inexperienced woman hairdresser.

Originally Posted by gcbryan

You may have withered arms but at least you aren't an inexperienced woman hairdresser.

True, so true.

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

I've had a love/hate relationship with my big Coticule..... it just did not seem to create the edge I was looking for. 10 years later, a local chap whom I got going in the straight razor madness, picked up an old stone at an antique shop for $10 or something like that and when it was cleaned up, it was clearly a Coticule hone. He used that hone in ways I never did, and offered a honed blade to me for my "opinion" on his edges. My jaw hit the floor... it was the nicest edge I'd ever shaved with! After hearing how he was honing the edge, I gave the same treatment to one my my razors on my disgusting, I should really sell it, Coticule. Today, the stone is NOT FOR SALE!

I know what you mean kaptain. I hope they toss my coticule and a handful of razors in my casket for heavenly shaves in the hereafter.