Jnats, Fake Stamps and Soft Stones

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Originally Posted by rideon66

Where would you get a stone at half that price? A tomo can cost half that. Now this stone has several issues of why I would not buy, but the stamp is more advertising and true stone quality won't be known without trial. Even at the price it is if the sharpening quality is there and this was cut to say 100g tomos at .35 a gram one could more than double their money.

I wonder if the wholesaler just has an old stock and a catalog of what is there and stamps stones based on that. Otherwise why wouldn't every stone be stamped for maximum profit.

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Let me rephrase: I bought better looking stones for half that price, which performed a task very well. Some finished a razor, some finished a knife. NB: I am one of those who will often take a chance, take the stone first and then find it purpose.. I feel this is the right point to say this. ;)

As for cutting into that stone, I would never do it - Too many lines in it and if you rubbed that on your base stone, it would scratch it very easily. To get rid of the lines in the hypothetical nagura, you would end up wasting at least half of the stone, and end up with very small nagura. Not that they wouldn't work, but they certainly wouldn't be worth a lot.

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

Let me rephrase: I bought better looking stones for half that price, which performed a task very well. Some finished a razor, some finished a knife. NB: I am one of those who will often take a chance, take the stone first and then find it purpose.. I feel this is the right point to say this. ;)

As for cutting into that stone, I would never do it - Too many lines in it and if you rubbed that on your base stone, it would scratch it very easily. To get rid of the lines in the hypothetical nagura, you would end up wasting at least half of the stone, and end up with very small nagura. Not that they wouldn't work, but they certainly wouldn't be worth a lot.

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That stone, if attempted to cut for tomonagura, will probably easily shatter along those lines and the pieces will not be nice and chunky to be comfortable to use.
If I had the option I would only go for stones with no lines at all, but they are less common. If one does not want to take chances, they should buy tested stones from a vendor. This way regardless of provenance one would get a proven performer.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

Where would you get a stone at half that price? A tomo can cost half that. Now this stone has several issues of why I would not buy, but the stamp is more advertising and true stone quality won't be known without trial. Even at the price it is if the sharpening quality is there and this was cut to say 100g tomos at .35 a gram one could more than double their money.

I wonder if the wholesaler just has an old stock and a catalog of what is there and stamps stones based on that. Otherwise why wouldn't every stone be stamped for maximum profit.

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Any reasonable soft stone makes a decent tomonagura. Most of us expect something a little different from the tomo and the base stone. Harder for the base and softer for the tomo. I would agree with srdjan's comments. I don't mind lines on suita where they're relatively common, as long as they're not toxic (I think I would tolerate toxic lines on a 24 sized suita if the stone was a strong cutter, the particles could be dug out and someone wanted $100 for it. Those things don't usually happen, though - the sellers talk down the fact that there are toxic lines as if it's just a trivial thing and the stone should be nearly as expensive as one that's uniform.

A 500 gram stone like the one above, I'd expect to get for about $30. I'm sure some tomonagura are less than that, but I'd rather buy a stone on the soft side and just make 4 of them for 30 dollars. Tomonagura are, to me, sort of like diaper bags for a diaper genie. You can figure out a way to use the thing for a fifth or tenth of the cost if you avoid buying pre-made bags.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

That stone, if attempted to cut for tomonagura, will probably easily shatter along those lines and the pieces will not be nice and chunky to be comfortable to use.
If I had the option I would only go for stones with no lines at all, but they are less common. If one does not want to take chances, they should buy tested stones from a vendor. This way regardless of provenance one would get a proven performer.

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And if you're going to take chances, which is fine (it gives you junk stones to cut to tomonagura, etc, or put in the kitchen or give to someone else to use), you expect the chances to occur at very low price. At least, I do.

I will pay a fair amount of money for a stone that could be a tool or razor stone, but the seller isn't sure (as long as they don't look like a loafy sloppy stone that can't hold particles in place no matter what). But, I know that a decent stone can be sold to someone wanting to get a taste for tools where they expect the finisher to be fine, but not particularly fast if used in a progression.

I do little with japanese tools except for chisels (which means I'm not sharpening a giant kanna bevel just with stones and no grinder), but I do a lot with vintage carbon steel, and if you're going to use waterstones, natural is the way to go for a finisher with those tools. For beginners, maybe not, because beginners always want to put something in a guide and pull strokes, but once you have touch and ditch those guides, a synthetic is miles ahead.

(by reasonable, I mean I will spend $150 on a nice 1.25 to 1.5 kg stone that doesn't have visible flaws. Tool users usually have something to flatten stones, so if a stone comes that needs slurry to wake it up, it is easily to notify regarding that if you're selling the stone, and someone who likes to do that will show up. I like some of each. Those slow stones can finish an edge on a tool very well, even though they're miserable to use with a knife. The fast ones that cut and just barely release something are a treat, too, but sometimes half cut and half burnish is just what you want).

I know you guys are talking Jnats but I recently got screwed, for want of a better word, on a Thuringian from a reputable dealer.

Now I will be a lot more careful and not blindly trust reputable dealers.

The regulars on this forum are about the only people I would trust when it comes to buying.

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

Let me rephrase: I bought better looking stones for half that price, which performed a task very well. Some finished a razor, some finished a knife. NB: I am one of those who will often take a chance, take the stone first and then find it purpose.. I feel this is the right point to say this. ;)

As for cutting into that stone, I would never do it - Too many lines in it and if you rubbed that on your base stone, it would scratch it very easily. To get rid of the lines in the hypothetical nagura, you would end up wasting at least half of the stone, and end up with very small nagura. Not that they wouldn't work, but they certainly wouldn't be worth a lot.

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This was more pointing out that even tomo cost more than that. I see highly regarded dealers on here selling tomo with fractures for around $100 for a tomo less than 250 grams. I don't cut up stones for tomo either it was just an analogy. That stone has storage issues to that the vendor pointed out so not sure why it is at that price since it will probably jump higher at the end.

I would love to know where to get super cheap high end tomo Nagura if this is true. It is at least $35 for a tomo on almost any site.

The pain is, you have to be in this game for several years before you find out who's who. I could show you a few "reputable" sellers' recent dealings to make your stomache turn... as I'm sure any senior member here could... but we don't do it, because it's none of our business. I like to think the truth has a way of emerging on its own, while gentlemen remain gentleman. And anyway, this is a hobby for me, which I'd like to keep drama-free.

Bottom line is, buy with knowledge and some kind of money-back guarantee, if you want specific stones, and be done with it. Folks like myself, who just like to mess around with rocks, need to evaluate several aspects of these blind purchases: if it's too soft, do I have some other use for it, or know others who may? Do I need 3 more tomo nagura, or do I know people who may like some? What if it's a door stop, do I have the right door to compliment it? Etc.... then put the risk into figures.

Say you gamble 4x for $200, and score once. I mean you score a rock out of this world, that has everything you need (minus the ink). Wasted $600, but if you'd gone and spent $800 on a money-back-guaranteed rock you liked from a good dealer, you're either out $800 and very happy with your new stone, or return the rock and get your cash back... just one simple case scenario. I go with option #1 and I've done well for the most part, but many folks go with option #2.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

This was more pointing out that even tomo cost more than that. I see highly regarded dealers on here selling tomo with fractures for around $100 for a tomo less than 250 grams. I don't cut up stones for tomo either it was just an analogy. That stone has storage issues to that the vendor pointed out so not sure why it is at that price since it will probably jump higher at the end.

I would love to know where to get super cheap high end tomo Nagura if this is true. It is at least $35 for a tomo on almost any site.

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This is not so easy to answer, but there are many pointers in this thread already.

If I were to cut my small Maruka stone into 4 pieces (cca 150g each), it is likely a piece would cost around $100 shipped and I would sell only 3.

If I were to cut an unstamped/gamble stone, or say I have some pieces left, from shaping a stone (which I do often), I would likely give it away free, say if a friend asked nicely.

If it's a very nice unstamped piece, I may offer it for sale, relative to the cost of the stone and its quality.... Or I may include it with a base stone, should I happen to want to sell and see a good match.

How other people form their prices is none of my business. I mean, I buy if I like it, or pass if I don't. They are simply selling to the highest bidder and market sets the price, and I'm cool with that I guess.

Agreed on the Wakasa, I recently got a very hard Wakasa, that has proven to be a nice finisher for me, you can get size and value for Wakasa, where other popularly mined stones of similar ability cost a lot more.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I know you guys are talking Jnats but I recently got screwed, for want of a better word, on a Thuringian from a reputable dealer.

Now I will be a lot more careful and not blindly trust reputable dealers.

The regulars on this forum are about the only people I would trust when it comes to buying.

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I ate a thuri, too. I think they're not worth the risk because they're not as spectacular as they are said to be. I ate mine because it was a 10x2 yellow green, when I flattened it, it had a stress crack that was stable, but it lost a lot of thickness and then I got about 1/3rd of what I paid for it. It was about as good as a middle of the road japanese stone, maybe not quite - same type of feel but without as much cutting ability. I would pay about $50 for a japanese stone that was as good as a y/g thuri, but I am willing to take a little bit of risk. You could take a dozen risks with random stones that people say they got out of a barber shop. Some percentage of them are bound to be such things.

Early on, they were about $100 (like a 5x2 with a rub stone), new or nearly new with great label. The online razor community has bumped them up, and who knows if that's temporary? If this hobby loses steam as some do (remember people collecting rare disney stuff, scrapbooking, rare baseball cards, stamps, ...?) there is nothing about thuris that makes their attributes that great. And the y/g that I had is of the finest type. The darker ones, I have no clue what people are thinking when they pay hundreds of dollars for them.

Of course, I could be wrong and they could yet reach their peak, but I doubt it's too uncommon for people to get an escher stone, hone with it and say "is that it? Did I just pay $600 for an 'oh well, ok' edge?"