Thread: New japanese natural stone Shobu

Originally Posted by DaveW

I have given up on nagura other than tomonagura on the harder stones (not because there's anything wrong with it, it just takes longer).

I go to a fast Suita then Koma and tomonagura on the finishing stone and done.

Originally Posted by mainaman

I go to a fast Suita then Koma and tomonagura on the finishing stone and done.

I'm doing the same and am finding very good edges this way.

Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not see the karasu in that Shobo. Is it in the layers below the surface?

I was scrolling down to the bottom of this thread to say the same thing.

Thanks fellas for the input. As mentioned, my experience with jnats is limited, so I am taking things in, and slowly I will get a good handle on them. I wanted to get a variety of stones to build up that knowledge. I'm coming from using the Suehiro 20k as my finishing stone, so a lot of adjustments are needed for me to adapt to this method. I would have liked to get a Nakayama but they are really costly and being new I don't want to make a judgement on them at this stage. I'll take things slowly, and listen to get the best out of these stones. I can say I have shaved off the Ozuku and Wakasa and both are keen, just about what you would expect from a 12k synthetic that maybe had a few laps of a pasted strop, slightly mellowed. I am going to try an edge from the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k put onto this Shobu. I know it sounds back to front, but those who have had some discomfort from the SG 20 edge, might get a very sharp, but more comfortable shave. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not see the karasu in that Shobo. Is it in the layers below the surface?

I think karasu often exists only in the layers of text in a listing, and not in the stones.

But as long as the price is reasonable, it's not that big of an offense. It just seems to be the trend right now with the vendors. Dark brown/greenish "kiita" stones, karasu stones with one mark on them, or a pattern that doesn't quite match, renge that you can't see. As long as it's not charged for, it's relatively innocent aside from being an improper label (Just like a maruka stamp on a $150 stone that would be $150 without it). It does put a fine fellow like Bobski in the crosshairs of some folks for no good reason, though - he's just telling us what the dealer listed.

I'll be completely honest in saying that I never really knew what Karasu meant, literally until I read Keith Johnson's glossary of terms re all things jnat. Having said that and looking at my Shobu I can see where it has semblances of these Crows against a sky type pattern, and the Burls related to the Tamamoku pattern so I don't believe The vendor was being at all deceitful. If you look at a painting of a hay stack in France in the 19th century, who would not in fact believe they were looking at a Monet....lol.
So, to be fair to the vendor Takeshi Aoki, this stone when wet, and freshly given some fig 8's prior to work, it does remind me of the Karasu description. it is completely different to the Ozuku and Wakasa, with one mention that the Wakasa resembled a Nakayama! Whack a Maruka stamp on its side and it's worth thousands. In jest surely gents. Last evening I took a razor and took the edge off it on the corner of a stone, re set the bevel and went to a 5k Naniwa. I spent 15 minutes on the Wakasa with slurry which I allowed to dry out, then I gave it three or so minutes (I don't count strokes) on this confounding Shobu, with only a hint of slurry. It is just after 7am here in Eastern Australia, and I enjoyed a very satisfying shave, a surprisingly better shave than I had gotten on any of the jnats, used alone. So whether or not the Crows are flying here or maybe they are Kookaburras, the end result was that I got a good shave happening from a nice stone. I swear some people have bragged about the title of Koppa, as a selling point, until they found out what it really meant.
There is much to be learned on this topic, but this Shobu is an excellent honing stone for razors. That is the only truth that matters.

Karasu is generally pretty much the pattern you see on gray and light brown stones, but even in that case, any black on those stones has been stretched. There is a stone on etsy with one spot, and that is apparently karasu now.

Your last comment nails it, it only matters that the stone is excellent for honing.

re: the maruka stamp, at least that now appears to be "slap a stamp on it and it will be worth hundreds!!"

It's like diamonds. If debeers stopped dominating markets, e color 1 carat diamonds would probably be a hundred dollars. The flawless genuine diamonds of any size would still be worth a whole lot of money. The diluting of the maruka stamp has gotten rid of the ridiculous notion that stones with a bunch of flaws should be worth several thousand dollars. Some people probably got taken for a ride during the transition where all of the sudden stones got stamped. But the truly rare stones of perfect uniformity, good size and perfect shape with good cutting characteristics - they'll always be high dollar.

Unless someone figures out how to print them someday with a 3d printer.

Here's a couple of karasu. You can see where the idea came from, crow wings against a gray sky. I've posted a lot of karasu on the 'Hone of the Day' thread, search that thread for karasu and you should find many examples.

Cheers, Steve

Great looking stone Steve and thanks for your comments. When I first got this Shobu, it gave me a few heart palpations. On its surface when held to the light I was sure there were crystalline dots over it. I thought 'oh no' thinking it had bits of quartz or some other nasty things that razors don't like. It was fairly flat when I started lapping it. It's a hard stone and took a while till I was happy with it. The good thing, was that there were no nasties in the stones surface. It was as you can see quite dark, and I guess you could see a crow if you looked hard enough! That being said, I got a nice shave from it.
I guess as a jnat newbie, I was looking for some type of differentiation as to the feedback and results from the three stones pictured. I read somewhere that an odd Karasu can be 'scratchy'. Thankfully mine is fine. So the question stands. What does an atypical Shobu Asagi act like. Does Karasu have any meaning other than these confounded birds? Now after putting a couple of razors on all three of these jnats, I am very happy with the edges, the important thing.
I at first thought the Ozuku was the harder, and the Shobu the softer. Well, I now firmly believe the Wakasa is the hardest. I honed on it from ample slurry with a Atoma1200, right down to virtually dry, and no real change in the colour occurred. The Ozuku did, doing the same test, darken a little, so I finished I on plain water, which I don't think added anything to the edge, I subsequently found finishing with a misty slurry to be about right. I am glad that there are differences, what I should do to get the best out of them, only experience will tell me.
So, if you have any ideas on these I'm keen to hear them. I'm having fun that's for sure, and seriously happy no crystally stuff has re-appeared on the Shobu.
Cheers Bob.

Originally Posted by bobski

I read somewhere that an odd Karasu can be 'scratchy'. What does an atypical Shobu Asagi act like. Does Karasu have any meaning other than these confounded birds? So, if you have any ideas on these I'm keen to hear them. I'm having fun that's for sure, and seriously happy no crystally stuff has re-appeared on the Shobu.

Cheers Bob.

Hi Bob,

Karasu are from a lower layer and are in general harder stones, and harder stones can sometimes be scratchy on clear water. They're not always hard but the chances are a karasu is harder than say a yellow kiita.

Many times the Japanese used terms from nature to describe the appearance of the stones. 'Karasu' means crow in Japanese, so no, it doesn't have any other meaning, it's describing an appearance like kiita (yellow board), yake (sunrise/sunset), momji (maple leaf), renge (lotus), mokume (wood grain) etc.

You can't infer anything much from the appearance of a specific stone, at least as not as far as investing your hard earned dollars in a specific stone. Red and yellow stones tend to be softer than blue, gray, or dull yellow (egg) stones, karasu tend to be hard stones. But you can't bet on this info with respect to a specific stone. Descriptions by the seller are far more useful in specific cases. There's no telling what typical or atypical anything is like without the seller's description because there were so many layers, types, mines, etc all with different characteristics. We all try to make sense of the mines, skin, and layers and try to correlate attributes to them but it doesn't work very well. If you have a lot of experience with jnats, you'll begin to notice some commonalities related to mines and appearances, but still this info is not that reliable but does increase the odds of getting what you're looking for. For example, if I want a good hard, fine razor hone, choosing a bright yellow stone decreases my odds considerably. I should be looking for an asagi, a karasu, a dull yellow, or signs say on the skin that the stone is from a deeper layer.

I looked at the two Shobu asagi karasu stones on Takeshi's site, and can see no karasu in either. Sometimes he uses a 'template' or modifies another stone description and he may have overlooked the karasu part. He also apparently mixed some of the images up between the two stones, but that happens with most of the sellers at some point.

Anyway, hope this helps. You're on the way to a lot of fun sir!

Cheers, Steve