Thread: Quality Variation in Black Ark Stones

Originally Posted by CamMorris

I recently bought a Black Translucent form Natural Whetstones, didnt know BT's existed, its 8x2x.5", nice piece of stone, cuts well, not nearly as fine as my translucent Ark from Best but they make a good team!
Cam

Those are dark gray trans stones with a structure more like a trans stone (no large foreign particles like you can get with some black stones from some vendors), and they have some translucence, which you definitely don't get with a jet black stone like the dan's stone I showed.

Those stones are actually pretty inexpensive for what they are (being a large trans). Norton sold a lot of stones that were dark gray trans, too. Their current black stones aren't like that, at least not all of them, but a lot of the vintage ones are.

Great stones. Only complaint one could have about them if trying to substitute them with a white trans stone is that sometimes easily seeing the black swarf is useful, especially if you're trying to figure out if something needs to be heat treated (steel that's not as hard as it should be will easily hone away even on a trans stone, but stone around 60-62 hardness will almost cease to be cut by a stone that is settled in).

Originally Posted by Longhaultanker

Did you see this...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...hetstones.html

And this

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...true-hard.html

Don't know about this grade of that particular chunk, but didn't see any wasted stone. In fact I just now remember Mary telling me not one bit goes to waste. They have non-honing, non-scientific applications for the "waste" by-product. I don't remember just what it was just now.

No, I didn't see that. Thanks! I was down for the count for several months early this year due to a medication reaction, and still have cobwebs and confusion from it. It sucks! And I missed that!

In terms of the usability, I wonder if they have better stock for trans stones than pike did. I can't find the excerpt that I originally saw, but I remember finding it on google image. It was a picture about 125 years old or older of some guy pushing a cart or standing by one at the pike mine, and a boast about how good and uniform the stock was, and that there was no other in the world (which everyone said back then, but I think it was actually true for washitas in their case). At any rate, they talked of 2500 pound or greater uniform chunks that could just be cut into flawless stones.

Joel Moskowitz at TFWW relayed to me that Norton wastes huge amounts of stone when making a 2x8 (I asked him why the 8x3 is so cheap when the 2x8 is so expensive - because I wanted the 2x8 and I just don't feel like Norton's stock these days is worth the risk at $175-$200. It's decent, but not that decent).

But Dan's is clearly saying otherwise in terms of waste (or perhaps the stuff that they sell off in 50 pound lots is what Norton calls waste).
https://www.danswhetstone.com/flint-...raw-materials/

(if you really want to play billy big rigger, they will sell you raw stone in minimum lots of 500 pounds).

The german/swiss in me (well, that's 100% of it) really likes to see that they have a market for the spalls instead of just throwing them out, though I guess it's not the worst thing in the world if you take literal rock and put it back outside.

Originally Posted by Longhaultanker

Hey Marshall, don't forget about me. Yes, Dan's does sell the True Hard for some less than Translucent and Hard Black. And I concur the True Hard is not one step behind the other two, as I've written on before with some dogmatism.

Here's my recently new True Hard, as referenced above.

Attachment 270239

Density, density, density, that's about all there is. Color doesn't matter as long as the stones are pure. I guess you could say pore characteristics, too, but that just goes back to density. I sometimes comment about low translucence (which may be misleading), but it's in the context of a stone that would be translucent if it was more dense. The non-translucents won't pass light no matter what.

That said, there's not a lot of hard stones on the market that are similar to Dan's true hard where they are not either black, gray trans or white trans.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Yeah, cracking is definitely no good. Might be acceptable if sold as a second or something. I've got a small hard stone from Gatco that came a little cracked. I think it was damaged in shipping. The dealer gave me a few bucks off it, and it's been a decent knife/tool hone for work. Never ceases to amaze me how well it works in spite of the defect.

I wasn't expecting that rock to be translucent. Happy accident I guess. I originally assumed what Dan's calls 'True Hard' would be opaque. But I'm not complaining. I wanted a rock with personality, and this certainly has it. It'd be nice to be able to hand pick one, but I'm probably 1200 miles or so away from Dan's so I have to rely on luck a bit.

I don't know what the technical terms are, but I consider there to be a pretty big difference between cracking and inclusions. Norton seems to cut away even inclusions now (some of the old stones have them, but maybe they have been dropped or had stresses, who knows?). Dans will sell stones with inclusions from time to time, but they are sold as seconds, and I like those because the inclusions have no effect on use and the stones are still the same super fine as the rest of their finishers.

I used to be able to get seconds more cheaply, though, I think their seconds page has become more popular. The black in the first picture on this page is a second due to some coloration on the opposite side, but it was about a hundred bucks (a screaming steal). A trans that I had and then sold had a dot on the back side of it and they sold it for $90 (also 8x2x1). Those days are gone!

Well, in my case the corner was broken off. I presume that the split in the stone now is relative to whatever broke that piece off. But I wasn't there when it happened so it's a shot in the dark.

Good God!

Vtg Norton Abrasives Hard Arkansas Oilstone HB8 Machinist Jewelers 8 x 2 x 1" | eBay

$286 for a stone that's been dropped. It's not even old. I was in on it up to about $65, and thought I might have a chance due to the damage!

$268? Wow. Me thinks that was a fluke there Dave.

Originally Posted by Steel

$268? Wow. Me thinks that was a fluke there Dave.

One of his shill accounts most likely. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that you see it re-listed soon.

I was following the same auction. Do cracks, let's say similar those in the pictures, prone to migrate easily? I could see that thing losing another big chunk with rough handling or temperature change.

If they're not loose, they can last a long time cracked like that. It's hard to tell if anything is loose without touching it, though.

If they're loose, they tend to break off. Otherwise, they're pretty stable and they don't creep along until the whole thing is delaminated like a sedimentary stone would (they probably do that due to wet and dry cycles, be it from direct water or humidity). There is no issue like that with an oilstone because the oil doesn't evaporate and it won't freeze.