Thread: Natural hone for setting the bevel?

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Now, back to the stones.
No matter how fast a BBW is, I don't think you can systematically use it for setting bevels, after say, a ding/chip of the edge at the sink, or a stone. Something coarser will sooner or later be needed.
As for eKretz analysis on steel and carbides, I couldn't put it better myself, he's right.

Please post a picture of the carbide straight razor or carbide tipped razor that needs a bevel set.

Originally Posted by AlienEdge

Please post a picture of the carbide straight razor or carbide tipped razor that needs a bevel set.

Where does the "carbide tipped razor" comes from? I made no such mention if I'm not mistaken.
I'm talking about practicality reasons' you don't need a carbon-nanotube(the good hard kind)-edge-made razor to need a ceramic stone to save time from honing. Using loose sand on a piece of wood was also used in the past for "setting a bevel". Can it be done? Sure, to varying success. The question is, do you want to do it?
Also, the "Chromium-Vanadium steel" that is advertised (although the "Chromium Molybdenum" is far more common but mostly an advertisement trick) is in 90% of the cases something more like this one,
Latrobe 420HC Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.35
or Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Sandvik 12C27, AISI 425M Version 4.35 you could say that's better, or
Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Aichi AUS10, Aichi AUS6A, Aichi AUS8A Version 4.35 the AUS line that starts to be reliable, depending on the maker, obviously.
Yes, these steels contain Vanadium. Technically. But I won't pay some 40$ for them. I won't even consider getting one and relying on it. Only if made by a master smith.

These are NOT however CPM 9V (Carbon 1.80%, Manganese 0.50%, Silicon 0.90%, Chromium 5.25%, Molybdenum 1.30%, Vanadium 9.00%) for example, made extra pure with really really low sulfur and phosphorus levels, and the likes.
And, it's not just that these steels are expensive; they are really really hard to work with, the failure rate is high and a single accident with a blade on the making is a lot of money and probably time lost, depending on the stage, compared to the above cheaper ones, and the finished product will have disadvantages, like that it will be quite brittle and you can't have a large blade, again generally, pretty much no matter how good a job is made hardening it.
I'm generalizing again, eKretz let me know if I'm wrong in the general lines.

Edit; Chromium Vanadium steel is not known as "carbon steel". It's known as "stainless steel".
Carbon steel generally means iron and carbon. And a couple of other elements may be added like Manganese. It contains less than 11-12-12+% Chromium, what we call stainless/stain resistant.
Carbon steel is a simple steel, possibly with less than that 0.5-0.6% Carbon. Above that 0.5-0.6% you can call it "high Carbon steel" and again, reading this is not enough to distinguish it from stainless, but giving the composition clarifies this.
Razors, the classic ones sold as "carbon steel" fell in this category, although their carbon content is high, say 0.8% but could be between 0.6-1% on that I can't be certain and every company has its own blend. And there are also these with alloying elements like the stainless ones but they say so.

Have you thought about how much metal can you rip out of a straight razor? And you worry?. I have some razors that have lasted more than a hundred years and I just can't say I have been able to misuse another 100 years.

Why we are so naive even when we don't want to be?. To end a useless discussion: We as humans will never be able to tell any difference in contents in any mix of metals, EVER! and we NEVER are going to be able to notice any difference (unless the very human nature gets into play)!.

That simple truth is so hard to grasp, that must get between a simple and joyful shave wich I will not get into any details???.

Get a stone from another planet. I assure you that the universe is made from the same materials.

I use the term "tipped " because a lot of tough tools like screw drivers and stump grinders are tipped with carbide to make it hard . Not straight razors. Natural stones will sharpen any straight razor I know of today. Also they do not cut slow as you said earlier. I have read at least a hundred post about people on this site taking tire irons, axes, hatchets, screw drivers, chisels and other means to alter the cutting properties of these stones. Why would you do that a stone that cuts at a snail pace to begin with ???

Originally Posted by AlienEdge

I use the term "tipped " because a lot of tough tools like screw drivers and stump grinders are tipped with carbide to make it hard . Not straight razors. Natural stones will sharpen any straight razor I know of today. Also they do not cut slow as you said earlier. I have read at least a hundred post about people on this site taking tire irons, axes, hatchets, screw drivers, chisels and other means to alter the cutting properties of these stones. Why would you do that a stone that cuts at a snail pace to begin with ???

Now we are entering the bevel setting (natural) stones or the coarse grit artificial stones. What's the difference?. There is one. The one and only: It all started when someone being a "traditionalist" wanted to know about opinions about natural hones for setting bevels. Not about contents in vanadium, manganese, etc… An I can wonder about the question: Some pride needs to be fulfilled like a japanese honer which spends at least 10 years of his life learning to hone a sword that takes from him at least six months of his life. We are fans of straight razors an there are people that can do what we dream what we think we can't do just because we have not the will or the time. I DO, and the results are in my smiling face no matter the contents of silver or dirt in a steel I choose to shave my ugly facial hair. Thank you Solingen and ALL those craftsman that worried about nothin but making a manmade tool we enjoy today all the way to at least 70 years without any elephant talk that sounds like false pride. And yes, I have purchased Dovo and Boker.

Originally Posted by aaron1266

Now we are entering the bevel setting stones or the coarse grit artificial stones. What's the difference?. There is one. The one and only: It all started when someone being a "traditionalist" wanted to know about opinions about natural hones for setting bevels. Not about contents in vanadium, manganese, etc… An I can wonder about the question: Some pride needs to be fulfilled like a japanese honer which spends at least 10 years of his life learning to hone a sword that takes from him at least six months of his life. We are fans of straight razors an there are people that can do what we dream what we think we can't do just because we have not the will or the time. I DO, and the results are in my smiling face no matter the contents of silver or dirt in a steel I choose to shave my ugly facial hair. Thank you Solingen and ALL those craftsman that worried about nothin but making a manmade tool we enjoy today all the way to at least 70 years without any elephant talk that sounds like false pride. And yes, I have purchased Dovo and Boker.

...From the dawn of time, like say 5000-6000 years ago when metal became a thing we sharpen and hone that metal. We started with natural stones each with different speed, particle size etc. found other natural stones, found out that we can shave if we go from coarser to finer... fast forward to last couple of centuries.
Quality of steel went waaay up, know-hows became a science, we have the emergence of man made stones because when say you get a car, polishing its body with a Pyrenees sandstone/soft Arkansas before painting it.... kind of doesn't sound right (sandpaper, I know, but still, not to mention wars and steel, I'm avoiding it on purpose), and we have them today because they save us time, and they won't run out.
As for steel, yes, there was mysticism in the past and they knew how to make it one way or another, but now it's science.
It's not about shaving our face! It's about planes not falling, cars weighting less and not breaking when going with 60mph 100km/h for us non US people etc.
The idea that "wow if I add that in the alloy, will it get better?" is far from new. And we have overdone it with knives and fancy shmancy alloys. Only, for every thing we add and make it fancier, there is some other thing we are trying to get raid of, like sulfur and phosphorus, that make steel useless, for out purposes.
They do have their uses, but not for us who like edges and toughness.
So, it's not that "I have a razor 150 years old and I'm satisfied with it, so, anything extra is useless". These new alloys have actual uses in the world edges aside.
They just get used for that too, for a "niche" market of people with more money than they need OR use their tools non stop every day. You are a chef. You fillet 400 fishes in a day, that's your job after all. Would you use a 0.50c knife? How long will it take, and how long will it take to maintain it every single darned day? You pay something more, you get something with them fancy elements, and you do your job faster, better. And you pay more for it.
I'm a farmer. I can use pruners that cost 5 euros, but they won't last a week. If I do pay however 50 euros for one, it will last half a year. Which one would you choose if you were me? Same with my saws.
That's the (or one of, if nothing else) meaning behind these new fancy steels. Not the knife I show on youtube at how awesome it is for cutting half a ton of paper without losing its edge. It's for the guy who cuts 1000 fish (or tomatoes for the vegans) without the knife losing its edge.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

...From the dawn of time, like say 5000-6000 years ago when metal became a thing we sharpen and hone that metal. We started with natural stones each with different speed, particle size etc. found other natural stones, found out that we can shave if we go from coarser to finer... fast forward to last couple of centuries.
Quality of steel went waaay up, know-hows became a science, we have the emergence of man made stones because when say you get a car, polishing its body with a Pyrenees sandstone/soft Arkansas before painting it.... kind of doesn't sound right (sandpaper, I know, but still, not to mention wars and steel, I'm avoiding it on purpose), and we have them today because they save us time, and they won't run out.
As for steel, yes, there was mysticism in the past and they knew how to make it one way or another, but now it's science.
It's not about shaving our face! It's about planes not falling, cars weighting less and not breaking when going with 60mph 100km/h for us non US people etc.
The idea that "wow if I add that in the alloy, will it get better?" is far from new. And we have overdone it with knives and fancy shmancy alloys. Only, for every thing we add and make it fancier, there is some other thing we are trying to get raid of, like sulfur and phosphorus, that make steel useless, for out purposes.
They do have their uses, but not for us who like edges and toughness.
So, it's not that "I have a razor 150 years old and I'm satisfied with it, so, anything extra is useless". These new alloys have actual uses in the world edges aside.
They just get used for that too, for a "niche" market of people with more money than they need OR use their tools non stop every day. You are a chef. You fillet 400 fishes in a day, that's your job after all. Would you use a 0.50c knife? How long will it take, and how long will it take to maintain it every single darned day? You pay something more, you get something with them fancy elements, and you do your job faster, better. And you pay more for it.
I'm a farmer. I can use pruners that cost 5 euros, but they won't last a week. If I do pay however 50 euros for one, it will last half a year. Which one would you choose if you were me? Same with my saws.
That's the (or one of, if nothing else) meaning behind these new fancy steels. Not the knife I show on youtube at how awesome it is for cutting half a ton of paper without losing its edge. It's for the guy who cuts 1000 fish (or tomatoes for the vegans) without the knife losing its edge.

Mastro Livi, is that you? Can you spare some razor to make myself worthy?. How about some shame that truly explorers like Charlie Lewis and others are doing to this dying business?. Yes. Some people have had not enough spending a lot ot money buying Wade and Butchers, they must praise some false idols! I wonder what Lynn must think about this shameful arguments!.

No. I stand with my only argument: Straight razors are tools and as tools, we do the only thing we do with all things that belong to the past: We take care as needed and nothing else. Those devices are not new and their persistence says only one thing: They work!. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, please, No Straight razor has ever killed anyone, not when you (et al.) try to put all those science into Sweeney Todd… hahahaha


So sad that the main theme is lost forever… Is is not the intention of Straight Razor Place (now Palace) to enjoy a shave with all that entails, no matter the cost but ultimately simply be informed?. Really informed?. I wonder…!

Originally Posted by aaron1266

Mastro Livi, is that you? Can you spare some razor to make myself worthy?. How about some shame that truly explorers like Charlie Lewis and others are doing to this dying business?. Yes. Some people have had not enough spending a lot ot money buying Wade and Butchers, they must praise some false idols! I wonder what Lynn must think about this shameful arguments!.

No. I stand with my only argument: Straight razors are tools and as tools, we do the only thing we do with all things that belong to the past: We take care as needed and nothing else. Those devices are not new and their persistence says only one thing: They work!. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, please, No Straight razor has ever killed anyone, not when you (et al.) try to put all those science into Sweeney Todd… hahahaha


So sad that the main theme is lost forever… Is is not the intention of Straight Razor Place (now Palace) to enjoy a shave with all that entails, no matter the cost but ultimately simply be informed?. Really informed?. I wonder…!

Offending me serves no purpose.
And it seems you did not click the Wikipedia link about the Century Of Self documentary otherwise you wouldn't give me this answer.
Yes, -some- of us are willing to pay extraordinary sums for razors just for the brand, or for stones for the stamp or place of origin. Some might even hoard them. Or anything that has more demand than supply, basic economics. I disagree with "our" attitude, a razor that shaves nicely is a good razor and that's it' I do have a W&B from a trade and a Maruka because the seller did not see the stamp; I contacted him to return it and he told me "what's done is done, keep it". I still feel bad about it, and since then I became a regular customer, but that's another matter.
I hate the fact that prices for stuff we don't truly need or have actual alternatives that produce the 100% same results get that overpriced, but that's how our world works. And want it or not, you will no matter what come into contact with such commodities. But we are part of this world, and hating it doesn't change a thing.
You are also right, if I understood correctly, that a lot of old crafts are dying and we, as a whole, try to find ways that make people, or even worse machines, do the thing humans did once that required extraordinary amounts of training. Although, in some cases, that's good (knowledge, medicine, science... many cases actually; we are alive right now because of one reason or another we survived, because of this)
But from what I see, your purpose was not a constructive conversation, so, I'm sorry I'm a fool trying to take part in it.

I must be clear on this and everything else: I mean no offense. If you feel like that, I must apologize. I have apologized twice today, I will not do it no more because it is how I am. I mean what I say but IS ONLY MY OPINION.

I must add: It seems that I am not expressing myself clearly. It seems that you are tracking every opinion I made in the whole site, but nothing that matters in here, in this very topic. It seems also, that you are taking this as a personal matter as you and I are no english speakers. This is the war about nothing!! HEHEHE.

As a side note, I must say that I love Evángelos Odysséas Papathanassíou music…

"México le debe un buen a Grecia, desde antes de la declaración de independencia de los Estados Unidos…"