Thread: Zulu Grey vs. Greek Vermio on Identical Torreys

I've found some great keen results from the Zulu and a straight edge. Not so much the softer, smoother feeling edge I can get from other naturals. And with the Thuri I get the more smoother feeling edges, so this is a grand idea mixing the two. I will have to get this a go.

Both of the razors could use a heel correction. The tortoise scaled razor is wider at the heel than the toe and the spine at the heel shows that it is not making full contact, and riding the stabilizer, keeping the spine off the stone, which is why the heel is wider. It could be the photo, but it also looks like the middle has a slight frown from the excess pressure.

A slight heel correction will move the corner well forward and get all the edge evenly on the stone.

The Black Peral razor shows heavy wear on the spine, stabilizer and tang. The heel is narrower than the toe, and lots of spine wear due to extra pressure trying to get the heel flat on the stone. The stabilizer is keeping the edge off the stone until the stabilizer is ground down. Even then the edge will wear faster than the stabilizer and can lead to an uneven edge.

Here again heel correction will allow the edge to lay flat on the hone, make honing much easier and may affect the results of your comparison.

Nice scale design and execution.

Not a fan of the Vermio and have not spent enough time with the ZG to prefer one over the other. My SG20 gets very little use and only occasionally, simply as a finisher of only 3-4 finish laps. Preferred finishers are Jnats and Black or Translucent Arks from a 1,4,8 progression.

I'm happy to see your updates on the stone! Reminded me that mine is on the way and to keep my butt off ebay!

The first razor does appear to have a touch of a frown, but the second one looks like a nice smiler. But, I've been boned by light and angles in photos before.

Originally Posted by dinnermint

I'm happy to see your updates on the stone! Reminded me that mine is on the way and to keep my butt off ebay!

I assume you mean you are getting the ZG, John? (Since that's your old Vermio, as you know). At this point, I'm liking the ZG better, though I've gotten a few edges close to it off the Vermio. I'll be interested to hear the results of your own experience with it, though I do recommend that long old thread I referenced earlier-the ground work on this stone has mostly been done for us; in any event, it is one of the easier naturals I have used.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Both of the razors could use a heel correction. The tortoise scaled razor is wider at the heel than the toe and the spine at the heel shows that it is not making full contact, and riding the stabilizer, keeping the spine off the stone, which is why the heel is wider. It could be the photo, but it also looks like the middle has a slight frown from the excess pressure.

A slight heel correction will move the corner well forward and get all the edge evenly on the stone.

The Black Peral razor shows heavy wear on the spine, stabilizer and tang. The heel is narrower than the toe, and lots of spine wear due to extra pressure trying to get the heel flat on the stone. The stabilizer is keeping the edge off the stone until the stabilizer is ground down. Even then the edge will wear faster than the stabilizer and can lead to an uneven edge.

Here again heel correction will allow the edge to lay flat on the hone, make honing much easier and may affect the results of your comparison.

Nice scale design and execution.

Not a fan of the Vermio and have not spent enough time with the ZG to prefer one over the other. My SG20 gets very little use and only occasionally, simply as a finisher of only 3-4 finish laps. Preferred finishers are Jnats and Black or Translucent Arks from a 1,4,8 progression.

Thanks for the tips on geometry, Marty. Like you, I always hone with tape, so any spine-wear was pre-existing. I don't know that you can tell a lot from my lousy phone pics, as the faux-tortoise scaled one has heavier spine wear in the middle. Neither has any frown that I can detect. But you're right-I did get slightly up into the stabilizer on the black pearloid one, and I even felt it on the stones, and had to do some extra back and forths on all stones to get the heels in line. Next time on the rocks I'll correct those heels.

On these two, the narrower toes didn't want to make contact without rocking the razor on each stroke. I have learned to compensate on razors like this with both a rocking motion and a decidedly windshield-wiper type stroke in which I lift the heel slightly as I come around, rather than a straight x-stroke.

Still, both provided a stellar shave, so I'll just wait until they need honing again to worry about geometry issues. I've got a few bevels to set and some others at various stages on the dining room table while my wife is away visiting her parents.

Sometimes I do love my shoulderless razors for ease of honing!

One other thing, Marty, since you finish on JNATs and Arks (which I also love-I just go through phases and love to experiment). Anyway, from my limited experience on JNATs (from a couple of Keith Johnson's Shobudanis I never should have sold!), the ZG reminds me somewhat of a JNAT in its surface, and the way slurry behaves on it. If I understand their origins correctly, both also originated a couple hundred million years ago from very fine sea-floor sediments, right? That said, I'd lose a bet if a nagura progression on a ZG wouldn't also yield similar results to a JNAT? (Sadly, I sold all my nagura with 1 of those shubos!).

An easy way to test what it will take to hone it, is to ink the bevel, spine, stabilizers and tang, if you see wear on the tang.

Then put it on a high grit stone, 8k ish without tape and do a few laps and see where the ink comes off. Do the bevels ride flat on the stone, does the spine touch from heel to toe on both sides on the stone? Check both sides a warp or twist can make a big difference from one side to the other.

If the spine and edge are not flat on the stone, figure out why. Heels and stabilizers seem to be a common problem that is easily corrected with a diamond plate and in a lot of cases will allow the bevels to lay flat. WD40 will easily remove all the ink.

You can hone a razor without correcting heels, you have to grind the stabilizers down to the angle of the bevel, but the bevel angle may not be the same across the entire bevel.

I have experimented with Nagura on a variety of stones, natural and synthetic, but rarely does it improve the best edge the natural is capable of. Jnats seem to be the only exception, probably because they are similar makeup and it is not just the grit of the nagura but a synergy of grits and how they break down.

For example, I have had interesting results on Arks with Nagura, Tomo and Asano, CBN and Diamonds, but with Arks, nothing is better and consistent as a burnish Black or Translucent edge. What’s the point? If you want a CBN, Diamond, or Chrome Oxide edge, just strop on a pasted strop for that edge. If you want a Jnat edge, use a Jnat.

I have several Kopa unstamped Jnats that produce smoking edges after a near mirror 8k Fuji finish. Once you have a smooth flat bevel you do not need a large stone or a lot of laps to get a great finish. Small stones are great way to test a lot of stones for not a lot of money. Once you find what works for you, then invest in a large stone.

With a Zulu you would probably get “different” finishes, but probably the best finishes will be with the stone’s slurry, using a cushion layer, (oil, Smiths, Ballistol or soap), or burnish one side of the stone, so it cuts less aggressively. Hard naturals can finish at higher with a burnished finish, if you don’t like it, lap it off.

As with most edges finished to a high level, a lot will depend on the steel and how fine/thin an edge the steel will support.

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

I assume you mean you are getting the ZG, John? (Since that's your old Vermio, as you know). At this point, I'm liking the ZG better, though I've gotten a few edges close to it off the Vermio. I'll be interested to hear the results of your own experience with it, though I do recommend that long old thread I referenced earlier-the ground work on this stone has mostly been done for us; in any event, it is one of the easier naturals I have used.

Yup, I got sold on the ZG with the sale, price too good for a stone I've heard so much about. I wanted a natural finisher with more realestate for my larger blades than my thuri's and finer coticules, which are either thinner than 2" or no loner than 5". I can do the honing gymnastics, but when the blade is +1" wide, it feels like a triple lindy when you're breaking 100+ laps. I'll definitely share my thoughts, as I'm pretty stubborn to use slurry nor anything that isn't water on my stones....

I have a Zulu Grey and I have a Greek Vermio. They produce fantastic edges, both very sharp, yet smooth if used properly. The only other stones I have that will produce shave ready edges for me are the Imperia la Roccia and the Suehiro G20K. I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the ILR stones, but I got a good one. If I start on slurry and finish under running water it will produce a very nice edge. I am not certain which of the four is my favorite. I tend to rotate among them as my final finishers depending upon my mood at the time.

I took a razor up to 8k then to the Zulu with some Thuri slurry on it. Worked it for around 80 laps finishing with 10 light laps on CW. Came up with a very keen edge that was smooth but not as much comfort as i find on a thrui stone. I was expecting more smooth with the thuri slurry. I will have to try again and finish on the slurry next time. Just want to share my findings. It was a great edge! Just not exactly what i was looking for.

Hey Aaron, I see u like dish soap or WD-40 on your finishing strokes, have u tried using pure glycerin, thinned with water, along the way.

Found it works well with Nats