Thread: Strop and paste vs. hone

Originally Posted by TristanLudlow

But what matters most is skin feel for me and only one natural does it for me and that's a Blue Belgian whetstone, but it's not for everyone. My Escher and Coticules don't do what a BBW does for me, a 20K synthetic is a really fantastic finisher in all honesty as well. But a BBW gives something extra the others don't of keenness and skin friendliness (not even the Coticules do it for me). But now we are splitting hairs and are in a highly subjective and personal territory.

Not the first one who talks in such a way about BBW... and this thing intrigues me.

Do you have a vintage or an actual one? How do you use it as a finisher? Thanks!

Yes, that seems to throw a new variable into the mix. BBW or a coticule is a possibility as well.

But, as previously stated, the only way to know is to try all variables.

Hm.

Paste is still definitely cheaper than a new stone, whether that is a 30k glass or a natural. I'll try that first.

But must admit the elusive Escher or a BBW is a curiosity...

Originally Posted by Skorpio58

Not the first one who talks in such a way about BBW... and this thing intrigues me.

Do you have a vintage or an actual one? How do you use it as a finisher? Thanks!

I have many, vintage, new, they all do the same job for me with small nuances. They all deliver.

I mostly use natural combos and I use them dry. I've tried everything from slurry to water to oil and lather. [The edge are different with these different methods, dry just delivers the best edges for me, otherwise they're just not as keen.]
It's all personal preference, but dry honing, as was rarely suggested at the time, works wonders for my edge, ymmv.
After you use them dry for a while, they only become better. The skin feel for me is unrivaled. Not everyone likes 'em and I'm not saying they're gonna work for you; but for me it ended my search for stones. (I have a La Veinette, a La Grise, La Nouvelle Veine, La Petite Blanche, etc. they all work, no need to chase an expensive vein, all my vintage ones work just as well)

I'm not telling you to try a BBW, but going to naturals might be an interesting idea.
Especially if after years of honing and shaving you still feel you're missing out on something.
Some friends might try finishing some razors on different naturals for you, might be a cost efficient way to see what you like and dislike.

Originally Posted by MarkC

Paste is still definitely cheaper than a new stone

That is indeed a good idea, natural stones is a slippery slope. It can take a lot of time and many stones before you find what really suits you well.

The 30k Shapton is a waste on many razors as they can't hold that edge, I rarely use it unless I am honing a NY made usually Little Valley brand
A very select few Solingen razors usually made during the Golden Era can take and hold a Shapton 30k

The Gokyu 20k is a much more forgiving hone at about the same price the actual micron difference is insignificant

No, a strop and a hone are two different approaches, just because they might be the same Grit size or close, doesn't mean they produce the same edge
There are also extreme differences between quality with pastes too, all .50~ CrOx is NOT made the same let alone when you go off into other types

Want more comfort, then look at using slurry on a natural, or at least try it on your 12k Naniwa there is serious "Magic in the Mud" for gaining comfort

JMO and I am sticking to it

Originally Posted by TristanLudlow

I'm not telling you to try a BBW, but going to naturals might be an interesting idea.
Especially if after years of honing and shaving you still feel you're missing out on something.
Some friends might try finishing some razors on different naturals for you, might be a cost efficient way to see what you like and dislike.

That is indeed a good idea, natural stones is a slippery slope. It can take a lot of time and many stones before you find what really suits you well.

Thanks for the answer (and for a new input: "dry Honing"... wht's that? ) I'll have to check it with a modern (not expensive) BBW .

I'm already on naturals, maybe because here in Italy, we're not much used to finish on Synth and/or paste. So I followed the mainstream and approached honing using mostly naturals.

Actually I'm on Jnats and experimenting with Naguras & Tomos just for the joy of learning and see if I can do better... but I'm already quite satisfied with the results of "simple" stones finishing...

Just published in another thread a microscope image of a blade I honed six months ago (my 3rd or 4th honed razor) with an unknown italian stone... And it shaved well...

For what it's worth. I have a trouble spot, also as I think many if not most do. It is just under my jawbone near my chin. I got a scar there from a cycling accident and it is very hard to get shaved clean without a cut or rash...with a straight. I can get it with a DE much easier. I don't know if you've tried it with a DE or SE but if you can get it close without rash that way then maybe the problem is just ergonomic. One big challenge shaving yourself with a straight I suspect we all face to some extent is those areas where your hand just won't quite turn that way. It did seem to help me if the edge was better or better put, a marginal edge made it worse. For my spot though I finally found that if I hold the blade upside-down, toe pointing toward my feet and shave toward my chin I can get it with a blade that is even at the near touch up time point.
Maybe this doesn't apply in your case but I shaved with a straight for years and years before I was able to do that comfortably without cutting the crap out of myself.
As has been said stones are a hole in the internet that you throw your money into or can be. They are definitely not the same but I think I might chase pastes first if there is uncertainty. For me the magic combination is arks...so far. I am not quite ready to dive down the jnat rabbit hole, or at least my wallet is not. Not that I have ventured down every trail but I have a trans slip stone that makes edges at the end of an ark progression so smooth and comfortable that I feel no need to look further...this week at least.

Concerning the subjectivity with naturals, I have never enjoyed shaving with a Coticule edge, while everyone on other forums seemed to love them. [Same with most other finishing stones in all honesty, they never hit that sweet spot for me]

I even visited some friends over in Belgium that honed up razors for me in person on their Coticules; but it never worked for me, and they're probably some of the most knowledgeable and experienced Coticule honers I know.

And tbh I found the whole slurry thing a huge PITA for me personally. I despised it. Using the Coti and BBW dry, they proved much more efficient while leaving a super smooth edge. I'll never understand using slurry on the coti/bbw. My La Petite Blanche is not noticeably faster on thick slurry than it is dry ... au contraire, using slurry never gets my coti or bbw edges as keen.

Naniwa 12K, Suehiro 20K, Coti, Escher, Green Puma paste, etc. All did a good job providing for good shaves, but never felt like "it" for me. I also never enjoyed shaving with a DE razor / blade.

So there's that. You can't go by what others like.

I find using slurry on a coticule useful when I have to build or rebuild a bevel, but when I am only interested in refreshing an already pretty good edge, I generally avoid slurry and use a water/glycerin mix.

I haven’t tried either the BBW or coti dry, but the next time I have to refresh an edge I will - just to see how it works.

When I’m done with the BBW/coti, I move to a finisher (Vermio or OOzuku, depending on what is closest at hand) and chromium oxide on a paddle strop.

I haven’t touched my 1k Shapton or my 4k/8k Norton in quite a while. They were useful when I was working on blades that had to be restored and for which the bevel needed significant resetting.

I only use my 1K diamond plate when sharpening knives or when I have to hone out a major chip in a razor or to lap one of my water stones.

Originally Posted by TristanLudlow

...I also never enjoyed shaving with a DE razor / blade.

So there's that. You can't go by what others like.

Yeah, me either. The point was more that there are two, I believe, separate issues which are being conflated here. I'm not saying to shave with a DE or SE other than to see if with one of those the OP can get that spot shaved clean without rash. If so, chasing a sharper edge is not likely to help anything. I sort of tried the same thing and I did find that a keener/sharper edge did seem to help a little but could even make it worse because it was not going to completely get that spot shaved clean and I was doing more to abbrade my face than anything else. The only thing that would get that spot was figuring out a way to turn the razor in a direction that would get the hair and do it without cutting the crap out of myself. It took a lot of practice but I did actually finally do it and no amount of resharpening or buying more stones or paste was going to fix that. YMMV

I do not care for any abrasive whatsoever on a regular hanging leather strop. My leather strops never get paste.

The only way I have ever found to get the edge that I like is to finish with a progression of lapped and backed balsa strops with a SMALL amount of diamond paste rubbed into the balsa, and then wiped clean so that there is NO paste coating on the surface. The grits are .5u, .25u, and .1u. The .5u gives a sharp but sometimes uncomfortable edge. The .25u, sharper and definitely not a comfortable shave. The .1u gives me a very smooth and comfortable shave. .1u is about 200k grit, FWIW and for those who insist on assigning a grit rating. There is more to it than just the tools and material, of course.

The balsa does not replace normal stropping on leather. Stropping on hanging leather is for me, essential, before shaving. After shaving I go 50 very light laps on the .1u diamond balsa. The edge stays very sharp indefinitely and I never have to return to stone or film, ever.

More in depth info about this on my website. Anyway this is one way of using paste that does actually work and will definitely give a sharp and smooth edge. The same cannot be said about using the same pastes on a leather paddle. As far as other pastes besides diamond, I have tried the more common green and red (Chromium Oxide and Iron Oxide) pastes and coaxing the same level of edge quality out of them is all but impossible. CBN is reported to behave similarly to diamond but I have not tried it, and won't until someone convinces me that it works better than diamond.

I have shaved off a lot of different edges but none match the edge that the diamond/balsa progression gives me. I have honed on coticule and Jnat and Arkies but I prefer synthetics or lapping film to 12k/1u as a base edge for improving with the balsa. I use a lot of different brands for repair and bevel setting but my progression from the bevel is always film or Naniwa Superstones, mainly because that is what I have and I am not about to spend money for Shaptons when the Nannies and the lapping film both work just fine. That's not to say that maybe they aren't better, only that I can't justify buying them. By hearsay only, I don't think that any synthetic stone finer than 12k will be very pleasing to me, nor do I care fur sub-micron lapping film edges. The half micron diamond on balsa is quite an easy jump from 12k Naniwa or 1u film.

Everyone likes what they like and there is a ton of subjectivity in razor edge treatment preference. And it is very hard to dislike an edge that is created or maintained by many many hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of stones when you have already spent for and bought them. There is also a lot of what I call "faith based honing" where you simply "know" that the edge will please, and so it does. And honestly, a really really good Jnat or Arkie edge is pretty darn good, but I do like my diamond paste edge best.