Has anyone used the Shapton ceramic on glass hones? They seem like they would be super flat and pretty durable. These hones are available from 220 to 30,000 grit and are fairly affordable.
http://shaptonstones.com/index.php?m...&cPath=164_166
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Has anyone used the Shapton ceramic on glass hones? They seem like they would be super flat and pretty durable. These hones are available from 220 to 30,000 grit and are fairly affordable.
http://shaptonstones.com/index.php?m...&cPath=164_166
No, but I'm thinking of getting the 16K. Do a search on Shaptons - I think I recall mparker saying he uses the Shapton Pro series, but that if he had known about the glass series he would have gotten them (or something - sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth mparker...).
I think he also said you need to have a very light touch as the Shaptons are fast and hard - the razor can get a suction happening on the hone, the pressure of which can hurt the edge if not careful. I think this was with regard to the Pro series, but may equally be true of the Glass series.
James.
Good call, I found the previous discussion available and will link it.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...hlight=shapton
And there's also this one.
James.
I ended up getting one right after Ucliker and I were talking back then... have been using it on every razor since then, but as a control factor, I did not go back, and refresh every razor with it... that way I could see if there is a difference between an 8k and paste finished razor, and a 16k and paste finished razor... To be honest.... yes the Shapton does put a slightly smoother feel on the razors.... Would I recommend it????? probably not... unless you are to the point in your honing skills that you feel totally comfortable, that you can produce a shaving sharp edge without a hiccup.... Because the Shapton requires a very soft touch to get anything out of them....
JMHO here ,,,,,
FYI the Shapton is rated at .92 microns...
I'm very comfortable sharpening all manner of tools and haven't had any trouble taking razors through a progression from "butter-knife" sharp (found at my local antique store) all the way up to passing HHT in two nights. Basic honing is more or less second nature to me, but I do use a barber's hone for current final polishing. I assume from everything I feel that these are very slow stones, though they do seem to put a pretty good edge on a blade. I am looking at the shapton's as a quick way to do 1) bevel setting on restored blades 2) move into final honing on the same blades. I've found that I can get some very sweet razors for $5-10 at antique stores, though you do have to be prepared to work on them. What I would have to ask, with my current finishing stone in mind, is how much faster than a barber's hone are these stones? I assume it isn't going to be a super quick process to find out how fast these cut, but I would appreciate the feedback on these hones compared to the barber's.
I have a Shapton Diamond on Glass Lapping Plate (DGLP) coming in the mail any day now. After being accepted into what is a very small and close knit online community of woodworkers who use Japanese woodworking tools who also commonly use the Shapton stones including the ceramic on glass plates, I asked them if they thought the ceramic on glass would work well with straight razors. They gave me some great information such as:
Since the ceramic on glass plates are typically lapped with the DGLP which is flat to less than one thousandth of a millimeter (.5 micron to be exact. I just like saying one thousandth of a millimeter better!), they are so flat that it's common to experience "stiction" (suction) with chisels, plane irons and also as reported here on SRP, razors. The woodworkers work around this by: 1) adjusting the amount of water used on the plate when honing. 2) skewing the edge at an angle rather than head on (much like AFDavis (Alan) does when he hones his razors).
Tim Zowada told me recently that Shapton stones work perfectly well with razors.
I have a Shapton 16,000 ceramic on glass plate coming and I will be buying a 1,000 grit plate for bevel setting. This will complete a Shapton "sandwich" for me with the middle being my natural stones (Tam O' Shanter, Belgian Blue, Yellow Coticule and Chinese 12K).
I'm looking forward to trying these Shapton ceramic plates very soon. The 1000 grit should be a very fast cutter given the uniformity in grit that Shapton boasts.
As to the lower grits I have no idea... the 16k is a fast cutter for the grit I limit myself to no more than 20 laps, ever.. I have grown used to using the Norton's from 1k -8k, however, if I were to start again knowing what I know now, I would probably get a progression of the Shapton's, if only for the lack of needing to lap as often...Quote:
Originally Posted by shotwell1234
While I am perfectly happy with the results I am getting from my Norton 4k/8k, and blue/yellow coticule with a chrome oxide finish, I am still contemplating ordering a full series of Shaptons based on the various comments I've read.
Shaptons bring order to the madness. The grit size of these manufactured hones is carefully controlled. The binder allows for frequent lapping with a quality diamond lap that is also available from Shapton. I think it's the ultimate honing system, the combination of the ceramic grit and the lapping system should accommodate just about any type of steel, tool etc. made and make it easy to establish a honing system or pattern if you will. Natural stones work well with traditional steels but when facing newer stainless varieties and harder alloys, the traditional stones begin to struggle. The Shapton hones, using modern ultrasharp ceramic grit, can cut pretty much any hardness of steel with the same ease as older, plain vanilla, carbon steel.
Dr. Moss has found this to be pretty much the case and has a set progression when dealing with previously sharpened by himself razors. I'm sure the outside extremes such as wedges vs singing hollow grounds might require some modification of the normal honing pattern, but the actual composition of the steel the blade is made from shouldn't make much of a difference with these modern hones.
Naturally, the proof as always lies in the pudding.... I guess I'll just have to get around to ordering a set for myself to see just what these Shapton stones are capable of....
Regard
Kaptain "Curious George" Zero
Hey Kap, I've been bitten by the Shapton bug myself, although I can't spring for a whole set at once. We'll have to report back our findings here. I'm looking forward to lapping ALL my stones with the diamond on glass plate (I think I'll take a closeup of it which will be my new avatar) and polish my edges with the 16,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Chris L
Great discussion here, guys. I'm really looking forward to following your progress.
Ken
I'm still waiting for my new Shapton Diamond on Glass Lapping Plate (DGLP to the woodworker community that uses Shapton products).
An Australian woodworker emailed me this morning and told me coincidentally he's been shaving with straights for 20 years! He knows about the B&B site, but I encouraged him to join here.
Anyway he says he uses an older ceramic stone similar to the Spyderco dry rather than wet. He's going to try the Shapton ceramic on glass dry rather than wet and let me know his thoughts.
My 16000 grit ceramic on glass is "waiting in the wings" for the DGLP to get here so I can lap it properly. I have a bunch of mid grit naturals (Yellow/Blue coticules, Tam and Chinese 12K) but for bevel setting, I'm torn on whether to buy the Shapton ceramic on glass 1000 grit or the 2000 grit.....:thinking::hmmm: I haven't decided yet.
Either way, when I get the DGLP for lapping and get a bevel setting grit Shapton stone, I'll most likely be putting my DMT 325 & 1200 grits up for sale on SRP.
Chris L
I dont know if anyone has checked out the side by side comparison of all the popular hones done on B&B http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29575 but it seems the shapton 16k got the thumbs up over there and that looked like a pretty thorough test.
Fwiw.
I know the thread is about Shaptons glass-backed hones - the equal of the Pro series in function, and cheaper - but there is something I would add about the diamond glass lapping plate.
It's addictive.
Not only does it flatten and clean steel residue from the hones, it works some special magic on an unrelated hone - the Spyderco UF. I've seen the video of the Spyderco rep saying it's a 2000 mesh hone, and I have read that it is the same ceramic mix as the coarser hones, and the etched pattern on the surface determines the grit/mesh equivalent. To tell the truth, I had no luck from the UF at all and wasn't using it until I got the DGLP. Now I have lapped the machining marks from its surface, and I have been trying to fit it into the series of Shaptons I use when progressing through them. I thought it was right, at first, between the 8k and the 15k, and would finish on the 30k. Just lately I have been trying things in a different order, and I'm getting really nice results from using the UF last. I wish I had some way of measuring the grit that would work here, but I don't see how without a scanning electron microscope. If Spyderco use one ceramic mix and mill the surface into the grit they want, then the more I lap the finer stone I have, up to the point at which I come up against the particle size in their mix. As things stand, I would strongly recommend the Shaptons, but if you can afford the DGLP then the Spyderco UF might save you buying the 15k and 30k. For all I know, it might be used on the medium and fine Spydercos to good effect also, but I don't have them and can't justify them with the Shaptons here to use.
Chris
I'm getting a few Shapton GS stones for my AS kitchen knives. I've been in discussions on the KF Kitchen knives forum and I'm pulling the GS stones... I've used the progression from 220 to 2k flatten the bevel on a T. Masamoto blue steel Takobiki. They cut well and stayed reasonably flat durring the 3 hours of grinding :p
If they stand up to that treatment a straight will take FOREVER to dish one :p
Just took the plunge yesterday and ordered the 16k - I'm getting an interesting mix happening with my whetstones as time goes by:
2-4k no-name ex-oilstone -> 4k Norton -> 6k (ish) natural Japanese -> 8k Norton -> 8-10K natural Taiwanese -> 10-12k (ish) natural Japanese -> 16k Shapton.
Thank heavens my HAD is only limited to the Asian continent, otherwise I'd have to try to slip the Belgians and Thuringians in there too :hmmm:
James.
My Shapton DGLP has taken FOREVER and....supposedly tomorrow is the day I get it. I told my wife, Sunday night I'm disappearing downstairs for lap-and-hone-orama!
I bought a Shapton 2000 grit ceramic on glass plate that I think will work very well for setting bevels; so now I have the 16000 and the 2000 waiting to be lapped and used.
I'm very intrigued by what Dr. Moss said about the Diamond on Glass Lapping Plate (DGLP) and the favorable things it does to the Spyderco UF..........:hmmm:
Chris L
BTW: This place is giving free shipping on Shapton Ceramic on Glass Plates; it's where I ordered the 2000 from and the shipping was very fast: http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm
I have the Shapton ceramic on glass 4K, 8K and 16K along with the diamond on glass lapping plate. I also have the Pro Shapton 15K stone and like these on glass Shaptons tons better. I find the 4K and the 8K are very similar to the Norton 4K/8K that I use and have had very nice results from them. I have experimented between the 16K and my Escher and still like the Escher a little better. I only use 10 strokes usually with either one. I have used the lapping plate on everything I own but the Syperco UF and it is amazing. The 16K is not bad though and with a little diamond paste or chromium oxide, you can get very nice results. I have been playing around with the Spyderco UF for months and still do not have consistent results, but have ended up with a few very nice shavers from it. I'll give it a try on another 100 razors and see what happens.
Have fun,
Lynn
I have to say I admire those of you willing to risk a $300 diamond plate to try and fix a $50 hone that according to the manufacturer is not meant to be flattened, not to mention someone reporting ruining a DMT diamond plate in the attempt. At least the DMT is only about $55 or so. :eek:
The comments on the ceramic on glass hones is very interesting, I had quite decided on the Pro stones but hesitated due to the reports of warping hones, not to mention their fragile nature when worn down. It was only then it dawned on me that these hones are not *fired* as most hones are but rather they are grit in a resin binder such as polyester or epoxy type resins which would be more susceptible to absorbing water and expanding unevenly, no matter how little. Now the glass hones make sense to me. It seemed to take away from the use of such an accurate diamond glass or cast iron reference plate if, when you returned to a Pro hone, it may have lost it's flatness, just from a change in moisture content. The on glass resin stones would seem to be more ridged, using the glass substrate to resist warping as well as the reduced thickness of the resin which also would reduce tensions and with the glass plate as the substrate would allow one to wear the stone itself down to paper thin before it requires replacement.
As I understand it, the use of the diamond plate should be immediately before actual use to true up the stone, eliminating any warping from retained moisture and that truing a stone after use is worthless as it may again warp before next use. So, while the stones don't require soaking and the instructions indeed say to not leave the stones in water, the need to flatten just before use would seem to take as much time as soaking a Norton. However, the reports of superior honing quality still intrigue me enough to try this system.
I'm going to hold off for a short while yet.... I still seem to have some smoke trailing from my credit cards... I have no idea why. :w
Regards
Christian
Did any of you gents who bought the glass hones also buy a Shapton Sharpening Stone Holder? If you did, was it really worth it to you? It's nice that it's made from rubber, but $80?!?! Seems a tad steep to me.
Regards
Christian
I did. The glass hones are nice but thin. The holder is at a perfect height for me and makes use very easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Lynn
Where did you hear this about having to lap the ceramic on glass plates before each and every use regardless of the amount of use prior to the current honing session? I've never heard this nor do the instructions mention such a practice. Harrelson Stanley, the factory distributor whom I've talked with also did not advocate such a practice. I have now amassed the ceramic on glass 2000 grit and 16000 grit and will be using them shortly. I also sprung for the Glass Diamond Lapping Plate and I think it's just awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Chris L
I bought THIS from Woodcraft and it works great for all my hones and fits the Shapton ceramic on glass stones perfectly as well. I recommend this one and at $14 it's a great deal. Even though I feel like I want to buy all the Shapton ceramic on glass stones from 500 grit on up to 30000 :rolleyes::D I did think about buying the Shapton stone holder as well just to......keep it Shapton, but the holder mentioned here works like a champ for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Chris L
Chris,
I was referring to the Pro stones with that comment and it was not my intention to make it sound like the factory was promoting this. However, if you watch the video on the Shapton site, the gent does refer to lapping just before sharpening (again, using the Pro stones). It's been a while since I was scurrying about the net looking for info on the Shaptons but that warping thing stuck in my mind (that came from one of the forums if I recall correctly). I have no personal experience with any of the Shaptons yet. I believe I pointed out in the same post that I thought that perhaps the glass backing was Shaptons way of dealing with the slight warping of the Pro stones..... After all, if you are going to shoot for the sub 0.001" flatness, there's not much room for moisture generated movement. Even micrometers used by machinists are mounted in a holder when high accuracy is required, as the heat from ones hand, heating up the micrometer can be enough to throw the readings off.
That Diamond Glass plate looks sweet... I'm teetering on the edge about to order a whole dang set of hones and the diamond plate but <gulp>, it's hard to justify those $$$, just to save a few bucks on razor blades! :D
Yes, I've seen those rubber stone holders locally.... the price is a bit sweeter than the Shapton version.
Regards
Christian
zero, amazingly, machinists also have to worry about temperature tolerances in different ROOMS. A favorite story of my great-grandfather's was from when he was a tool and die maker at Allison Transmission the inspection room was about 3 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than the machine room. The subtle difference between these two rooms required him to re-machine several precision tools before they could pass inspection. Eventually, he had to devise a way to cool the tools before he measured them (though I can't remember how he did this anymore) so he could pass these inspections on the first go. Just a funny little anecdote to show that low tolerance for shift, error, and warp involves a lot of different variables that most of us would never think to consider.
Yepp, first thing you do is tap the thermometer in the room to make sure it's sitting pretty at 18c...... well, at least us metric guys do. :D
When it comes to honing razors, all this accuracy doesn't amount to a hill of beans really... Over the width of a razors bevel, we're talking molecules in difference between a perfectly flat hone and one that's out 0.001" over an 8" length. The film of water being used for lubrication while honing will add more error than what we're talking about... add a few particles of slurry and all bets are off.
And yet.... it's a damn fine honing system by all accounts. Urgl..... I can't resist! :cry:
Regards
Kaptain "I'm sooooo weeeeak" Zero
The biggest thing for me when looking at a system like this is durability. I have my vintage combo belgian, but it has obviously seen years of hard use. If I take it out of all service, excepting razor honing, from this day forward, it should last me the rest of my life (hopefully a good long time from now). If I pick up a Shapton system, it should be able to do my plane blades, chisels, stoopid sharp knives, and all the other toys I pick up in the future without ending up needing replacement. The other option (since I have a sweet lapping plate already) is to just buy a second belgian combo or just a coticule (my combo has TONS of blue left). Now that I think about it, it seems kind of like a no-brainer.
Ok... I is as schmart as the next guy, but really.... since when did "BRAINS" have anything to do with this?!?!? :roflmao
Regards
Kaptain "I've lost it for good now..." Zero
Now you guys have me lusting after new hones...!