Thread: Naniwa S10000 vs Shapton GS16000

Here is an interesting observation. The scratch pattern left by my Shapton 16K Glassstone appears coarser than that left by a Naniwa S10000 Superstone. I've had both these stones for a while now and just got around to making this comparison.

I honed my Dovo Special in the conventional manner on the Naniwa until there was virtually no visible striations at 10X. When I follow that with a Shapton 16K, I can see very fine and very regular striations. Then go back to the Naniwa and after about 30 laps the Shapton scratch pattern is gone and there are no visible grit patterns (at 10X).

I'm using a Belomo triplet loupe under very bright light. I'm viewing from multiple light angles to make any striations jump out.

I'm not making any pronouncements on what gives the best shaving edge. I just thought this bevel polish test was interesting. The Shaptons have a reputation for cutting fast. Maybe the Naniwa is not cutting grooves as deeply, so they are not as visible.

Here is some sample propaganda on each stone:
Shapton GlassStone Waterstones

#10000 Ceramic Super Polishing Water Stone - Naniwa <!W-N-IN2290> - The Japan Woodworker Catalog

(The fine print on the Naniwa surface in the photo says, "Fine Sharpening Taste as Natural Stone Gives." Gee, no wonder it works so well.

I've done simular tests with the 16k shapton, Chosera 10k, and ninawa 10k. One thing I noticed was the feel of the Ninawa products was a much softer cut. As where the shapton felt as hard as a rock. I didn't have enough time to really play with all the posabilities these different stones offer. I'm very impressed with the ninawa stones and plan on getting a few more down the road

The one I have at the moment has no plan to touch a razor.... at 150 I think the razor would jump out of my hand and run away

I agree the Naniwa 10K is softer. That may account for the ability to polish out scratch patterns left by the Shapton 16K. I will be compairing shaving edges in the next few months.

I wonder if the softness (which may be an asset for polishing) has a negative impact on resultant shaving sharpness. I also noticed the Naniwa is less dimensionally stable than the Shapton. It seems to shrink and swell a little with moisture. Something to consider when checking for flatness.

It could depend on the type of grit used in each hone. There are many factors that go into how certain grit crystals polish, like whether or not they fracture under pressure, how deeply their faceted surface penetrates into the steel, what concentration of grit there is in the hone, etc.

I say do some more observing, some test shaves and report back. Very interesting!

(as for the shrinking/swelling you've noted, that should be nearly impossible, shouldn't it? Ceramic doesn't flex or distort at all, it just breaks. How did you measure the deflection?)

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

(as for the shrinking/swelling you've noted, that should be nearly impossible, shouldn't it? Ceramic doesn't flex or distort at all, it just breaks. How did you measure the deflection?)

Russel,
The Naniwa is not a solid chunk of ceramic like a Spyderco bench hone, so I guess it could swell or shrink as you soak it for use. I flattened it once and then when I checked it a month later it had bulged up in the center area.

I'm experimenting with test shaves off this hone, but it's very subjective for me. After doing this for over a year I still find the hone/strop process to be mysterious. Sometimes something works great and then later it won't.

Grit size even when using the same definition/system seems to have meaning mostly when comparing one cutting agent with another.

.25 micron Diamond grit for example seems to cut quite a bit more aggressively than .5 micron Chromium for example.

I can see where in theory and even in practice a lower grit but less aggressive stone might very well be used to polish after a higher grit but more aggresive stone.

As I acquire more stones I might have a better opinion.

It's a shame that the grading and sale of the japanese water stones is so difficult to figure out.

I was playing with a set of Shaptons on Friday and I ended up with an edge that, under 200x magnification, didn't appear to have scratch patterns of any consequence. This was on a Wade & Butcher. The edge was so shiny in fact, that I could see the bulb in my headlamp on my Optivisor. That's pretty darn reflective. The shave was very impressive too and using only water, I shaved the back of my hand to baby smooth skin. It's Sunday now and I'm just starting to get some significant stubble on my hand. Interestingly enough, I did get scratches after I stropped about 10x on each side and they were clearly from the strop as they were at right angles to the edge. It is a C-Mon vintage strop, natural leather, and I'd just cleaned it with saddle soap and water and treated it with Fromms. I stopped at the 16k Shapton and didn't use the 30k.

Howard,
I suppose a different razor could react differently to the 16K. Mine is a Dovo Special and not that hard I am told. Maybe yours was harder steel so the 16K made shallower grooves.

I concur with your strop remarks. I saw the same thing in the 10x loup. My strop made random, coarse scratches that were not there off the 10K or 16K.