Thread: Dragons Tongue Hone anyone?

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The only other native hone from your neck of the woods that I am aware of is the Charnley Forest. This is of course an antique now. I managed to acquire one from a UK antique dealer but it is too slow cutting for my tastes.

There is also the Scottish Tam O'Shanter and the Dalmore Blue. These may still be mined on a limited basis. I'm not sure. They are more suited to honing razors and some people like them very much. I have a set of them and I am still using them once in awhile but I haven't really gotten to know them well enough yet.

Then there is the Water Of Ayr, also a Scots hone and one that I am actively seeking in a 6x2 or 8x2" size.

If anyone orders the DT from Ingo-Jones be aware that it may take some time to receive it. Mine took about 6 weeks from the time I ordered it until it came to my door. I am in the USA so if you are in UK perhaps it won't be as long. I have the impression that they process the hones as the orders are received rather then keeping a large stock readily at hand.

I know the area around Llyn Idwal quite well and as slate doesnt occcur in veins as such theres tons of the stuff round there, lots of disused quarries, I wonder how they managed to identify a small section that was good for making hones? It was apparently widely known in its day, even Darwin mentions the Idwal hone quarry in his notes on that area. Ive also found references to other possible hone quarries in the Snowdonia area and Im trying to find out a bit more about this cutlers Greenstone which it seems could have been quarried on Snowdon itself. Maybe it was a greenstone intrusion/igneous sill within the slate, though I dont know whether an igneous rock is likely to make a good hone, it would certainly be hell to dress and lap, would be nice to tie down a location for the greenstone quarry though. I think a few days in the hills with my geology hammer is in order once Ive done a bit more research, mind you, Im not sure I would be able to spot a good hone stone in the raw amongst all the old quarry spoils.

Are the Tam O Shanter and Water of Ayr different stones?

With all the excitement Ive gone and bought this on the bay, havent a clue what it is except that it looks like an old fine grained stone of some sort, maybe a lump of slate? I had hoped to get it for a few pounds but someone else had spotted it too



I never would have believed I could develop an obsession with old sharpening stones!

Originally Posted by Jason01

I never would have believed I could develop an obsession with old sharpening stones!

+1 !! To quote a blues song by Ry Cooder, "It's a slow consumption killing me by degrees".

From literature I have read it first appeared to me that the Tam and the Water of Ayr were one and the same but I have since found out that they are quite different.

I have a Droescher that looks very like your stone. When it is dry it looks like an Escher blue/green but wet it turns silky black. The slurry is milky. A nice finisher.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1 !! To quote a blues song by Ry Cooder, "It's a slow consumption killing me by degrees".

From literature I have read it first appeared to me that the Tam and the Water of Ayr were one and the same but I have since found out that they are quite different.

I have a Droescher that looks very like your stone. When it is dry it looks like an Escher blue/green but wet it turns silky black. The slurry is milky. A nice finisher.

That would be nice, heres hoping!

Are off topic posts frowned on here? Im pretty bad at straying off on a tangent its true

Originally Posted by Jason01

That would be nice, heres hoping!

Are off topic posts frowned on here? Im pretty bad at straying off on a tangent its true

Another + 1 I don't know if we are off topic or not but I figured it would be polite to designate it as such since we are wandering from the Dragon's Tongue stone and into others even if they are all sharpening stones. Maybe one of the mods will let us know.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Another + 1 I don't know if we are off topic or not but I figured it would be polite to designate it as such since we are wandering from the Dragon's Tongue stone and into others even if they are all sharpening stones. Maybe one of the mods will let us know.

Aye, fair enough Im off to dream about slate quarries in the mountains

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1 !! To quote a blues song by Ry Cooder, "It's a slow consumption killing me by degrees".

From literature I have read it first appeared to me that the Tam and the Water of Ayr were one and the same but I have since found out that they are quite different.

I have a Droescher that looks very like your stone. When it is dry it looks like an Escher blue/green but wet it turns silky black. The slurry is milky. A nice finisher.

Where did you get the Hohenzollern, Jimmy? Personally I would refer to that hone as a Hohenzollern rather than Droescher. I owned a Hohenzollern but rather than Droescher, the retailer was a hardware company in St. Paul, MN called Farwel Ozmun Kirk. Kees owns mine now. He says his Hohenzollern performs better than his best Eschers IIRC. Hohenzollern would be akin to the make of an auto while Droescher or Farwel Ozmun Kirk would be akin to the dealership. Just my opinion.





My fellow HADdicts will forgive me I'm sure.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

Where did you get the Hohenzollern, Jimmy? Personally I would refer to that hone as a Hohenzollern rather than Droescher.
My fellow HADdicts will forgive me I'm sure.

Chris L

I guess you are right Chris. OTOH, a mutual HADICT refers to it as a Droecsher because of the signature while Hohenzollern is the geographical area. At least I think it is with the castle and all on the label ? One way or the other it is a good rock. I wish I had been up on them when you sold that y/g. I might have beat Kees to the punch.

I see your point, Jimmy. Well, it's all Thuringian to us!

Chris L

Originally Posted by Jason01

Are the Tam O Shanter and Water of Ayr different stones?

The short answer is yes. The long answer is....it's complicated.

Both come from the same area, Ayrshire, and were mined and packaged by the same company. The Tam O'Shanter is mottled beige-gray in appearance. Traditionally it was for jewelers and watch-makers. It's rated as "fine" by the company and most guys here rate it about 6-8K. It is good for gentle honing on microchip-prone razors, and many guys find that if you use it before a higher-grit finisher the end result will be very smooth & comfortable. Not many shave directly off of it.

The Water of Ayr is charcoal-gray to black and homogenous in appearance. It looks and feels like a black escher. Traditionally it was for razors and scalpels. It is rated as "very fine" by the company and in my experience is comparable to the coticule and chinese 12K. I'm not good at estimating grits but you can shave off it very nicely. It feels like silky glass to hone on.

The same company also sold other natural stones including the Dalmore Yellow and the Dalmore Blue. The name of the company was the "Water of Ayr Hone Works" or something like that. The Tam O'Shanter is by far the most famous & commonly found of the stones they made, but it wasn't always called that; hence the confusion. In the 19th and early 20th century what we now call the "Tam O'Shanter" was variously called "Snakestone," "Scotch hone," and "Water of Ayr stone." In the early 20th century, the company announced that thenceforth the famous mottled beige stone would be known as the "Tam O'Shanter," and at that point the name "Water of Ayr" would be reserved for the finer, scarcer dark stone. "Dalmore Blue" and "Dalmore Yellow" were also introduced as names for the medium and course stones, respectively.

I once found the company's announcement in an old trade journal (via Google Books); I'll see if I can find it again.

This is the reason there is sometimes confusion about naming. The Tam O'Shanter still gets called the "Water of Ayr stone" quite a bit, not only in old books referencing it but also by online merchants still selling it. If you're about to buy a "Water of Ayr stone" from an online seller and what you want is the very fine dark finishing stone, ask them to describe it.

To add extra confusion, I believe that at the time of its announcement, the company changed its name to "Water of Ayr and Tam O'Shanter Hone Works."

I read somewhere – again, I'll try to find it – that the origins of the dark Water of Ayr Stone is petrified wood!

I found the company announcement (a paid notice John C. Montgomerie, the owner of the company at the time, took out in "Kelly's Directory of the Leather Trades" in 1885) and a related comment of mine from an old thread:

Originally Posted by dylandog

IMPORTANT CHANGE OF NAME.
The name of the celebrated qualities of Hone Stone produced from the “Water of Ayr Stone Quarry and Hone Works,” and esteemed and known in the market as “Water of Ayr Stone,” “Snake Stone,” and “Scotch Hone,” and exclusively supplied by me and my predecessors for about 100 years past, is now changed to the distinctive name “TAM O’SHANTER” Hone or Stone, and some of the grades of quality suited for special purposes will be known as “DALMORE HONE,” “MONTGOMERIESTONE HONE,” and “SOUTAR JOHNNY HONE.” Every Stone will bear a Label or Stamp with one or other of these names, and the public are earnestly requested to ask for it accordingly, as only the very inferior sorts and those hitherto rejected at the Quarry will now be sent out by me as “Water of Ayr Stone” or “Snake Stone.”
JOHN C. MONTGOMERIE, “The Tam O’Shanter” Hone Works, Dalmore, Tarblton Station, R.S.O. Ayrshire

Of the new names, apparently only "Dalmore" stuck. And in due course "Water of Ayr Stone," far from designating rejects and seconds sold presumably at a discount, came instead to designate the very finest of the Scotch hones. I wonder if there are any Montgomeriestone's or Soutar Johnny's out there to be found. Soutar Johnny by the way was another character in the "Tam O'Shanter" poem by Robert Burns.

Here are a couple pics of a Tam O'Shanter / Water of Ayr combination stone: