Thread: Cleaning Shapton Glasstones

Originally Posted by jwoods

i cant seem to set a bevel with this stone for crap,

Bummer. What kind of razors are you trying to set bevels on using the 2K? vintage restos needing quite a bit of work? How many passes have you done on a razor trying to set the bevel on the 2K?

Chris L

I usually just wipe them off under running water with my fingers. It also helps to find ways to use the whole surface. As well spray it clean if it "blacks out" while honing, which of course sounds like a lot of swarf for a razor...just sayin'
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I don't have a 2000 but one would imagine it'd set a bevel fairly easily. Do you have enough water?

I keep meaning to drag out my fake Nagura stone to see if it will clean up the surface of my Shaptons. It should... after all it's only loosely bound fine grit and rubbing the slurry on the surface of a Shapton hone should clean it promptly.... but ACK, as it's not a $300 GDLP so it will probably ruin any chance of accuracy in sharpening!

2k is about the finest hone you could use for "sharpening", anything finer than that is polishing. If you need to remove a fair amount of steel, rather than just tweaking a slightly dull razor you'll probably want to drop back down to 1k or even 500 and work your way back up. You can't equate hones made of different materials just based on the grit rating.... diamonds are very aggressive when new and widely spaced but will slow significantly as they wear in. Shaptons with their tight packed ceramic particles will tend to load up sooner and may cut finer than a comparable diamond hone if you are comparing grit for grit but they ARE aggressive hones that will cut very quickly.

Regards

Christain

I have to say I disagree with your distinction between sharpening and polishing Kaptain zero. the 8000 shapton is cutting steel and thinning the edge. I have few finer stones and feel the same can be said for them.

or it could be that polishing is hard for me to define

We generally refer to the higher grits (1k and up) as polishing grits because the actual edge width doesn't get significantly finer after that.

I've recently been thinking that this kind of notion can be taken as far down the scale as 300 or 400 grit. I can get an edge to cut hair at those grits and if the edge is thin enough to grab hair, it can't possibly get that much thinner, so everything from there on up is polishing the edge into a smooth, even, bevel that can be used for a comfortable shave.

The higher grit stones are definitely removing metal, but the term sharpening looses it's meaning once the edge meets at that single line, from then on you are honing, or polishing, out the irregularities.

Correction: the Verhoeven sharpening experiments document shows an improvement from about 3 microns edge width at 200 grit (from one high ridge to another, not accounting for the valleys that are closer together) to 1 um EW at 1000 grit, to 0.5 um EW at 8000 grit, to 0.35-0.4 um EW after stropping with CrO pasted leather strop. So an increase in sharpness of at most 3 microns can be expected after the initial bevel is set. To me, an improvement of 0.003 mm isn't sharpening, per se, but then this is just a difference in terminology.

Perhaps I am bring apples to a discussion of oranges but I have the Shapton Pro series. I like the 1 & 2K very much. I am not so fond of the 5 and 8K. The 12, 15, and 30 are really good for polishing an already sharp edge. If I had it to do over again I would not have gotten the 12 as the 15 is close enough.

My stones don't load up too quickly. The 1 & 2k do load up more quickly then the finer grits but that is to be expected as I am using a bit of pressure setting a bevel or honing out micro chips. On the higher grits I am using almost no pressure. Lapping with the GDLP is easy. No problems with the plate yet (knock on wood) I rinse the stone when I am through with it and if I think it needs it I give it a going over with a nylon bristle brush under running water. No soap. Not saying soap is bad just that I haven't found it necessary.

Not to argue the point as I am a relative newbie at the fine art of honing razors to scary sharp but one of my main honing mentors says that setting bevels on a 1 or 2k is the way to go and sharpening ends on a 4k. Anything above that is polishing to improve an already sharp edge. That is if I understand him correctly.

I tried to account for a difference in terminology. To me polishing refers to an aesthetic value. True, polishing metal removes material as well but the intent is different. polishing is to create clarity/ sharpening is an attempt to create nothing. - the zero edge

Of course we are talking micrometers, however, imho a reduction of 1/2 and greater is substantial no matter the subject.

I guess you could say I'm splitting hairs, but isn't that the point.

This discussion could really use it's own thread, but it seems there are only three of us really interested in it ATM so...

The edge width figures from the Verhoeven document were measured as a maximum width from one peak to another, on what looks like a zig zagging line. The valleys of that zig zag are much closer together than the 3 um, or even the 1 um, measurement (and especially if diamond abrasives are used).

So there is still a sub micron edge at those lower grits, it's just out of alignment and mostly unusable in that condition.

(One could also make a case that sharpening stops where a usable edge is obtained for the intended cutting media i.e. a pocketknife does not need the edge that a razor has.)


As for cleaning stones, I rinse my stones off with water. Hones (artificial stones), on the otherhand, (ceramic but not Shapton) require periodic scrubbing with a stiff nylon bristled brush under running water, or a good lapping; mine are cheap so lapping is usually the preferred method.

Originally Posted by kevint

I tried to account for a difference in terminology. To me polishing refers to an aesthetic value. True, polishing metal removes material as well but the intent is different. polishing is to create clarity/ sharpening is an attempt to create nothing. - the zero edge

The problem here is that useing your definitions, a stone can be both a sharpening stone and a polishing stone, because the difference lies in the the intent of their use not in any properties of the stones.

Originally Posted by Chris L

Bummer. What kind of razors are you trying to set bevels on using the 2K? vintage restos needing quite a bit of work? How many passes have you done on a razor trying to set the bevel on the 2K?

Chris L

they are vintage blades and i kno the shapton is flat and true, the hone shows dirty the entire path of the stroke sometimes as many as 200 strokes to get a somewhat sharp bevel, recently i used a barber hone after the shapton 2000 and it brought it up to very sharp in 50 strokes so i wasnt that far off, i found that honing with the shapton under a little running water helps a lot, i just have to use my stoneholder or risk clipping a finger, i am probably expecting too sharp a bevel than what it can provide