Thread: Nakayama Nihon Kamisori

Finally figured out what the deal was with the wedge I tried honing, and now it shaves amazingly. so thanks for all the feedback on that

I was speaking with a couple different people about this Japanese natural, Nakayama Nihon Kamisori. I saw on a couple threads and other websites that you can sometimes get scammed when purchasing this stone from someone that may not be reputable. I guess they try and copy the stamps and all kinds of stuff.

One thread I was reading stated to make sure your source is reliable, such as O_S?? Is this a website? a member? How would I go about finding a reputable dealer for this type of stone? Thanks in advance

O_S stands for "Oldschoolshaing"
he has a website Japanese whetstones
and is a highly regarded member of this community.
You can contact him and have a little chat

Yes O_S ( OLD_SCHOOL ) is a member here. I've dealt with him previously and he's very knowledgeable and great to deal with. Here's his vendor ad

JimR and Zethlent can point you in the right direction as well as many others. I also dealt with Jim and had pleasant transaction as well.
Here's the vendor ad and here is another.

There's also Alex ( japanblades.com ). He's a member here under Alx if I'm not mistaken. Best of luck mate

I totally agree with O_S on these matters.

Nakayama is the most famous of the mines in part because; of the ancient history surrounding the mine, the previous owners marketing skills, and the extremely fine quality of the stones from that mine. Kato-san who owned the mine from the 1920s into the late 1960s stamped all of his stones with the mines name while most other miners wholesaled their stones to consolidators who marketed them with their own companys names without regard to mine they originally came from. Also Kato-san was particular about the quality in the stones that he chose to slab up and finish and to stamp. He did not as a rule release inferior grade stones so in this way his mines reputation was built on firm footing, not just on myth, and thus he was able to charge higher prices than other mines.

The location of the Nakayama mine was (it was closed in 1967) on the side eastern side of Mt. Atago, the highest peak in the region. The strata of this area was particularly fine and the stones are known for their even grain. These are the 2 ingredients most important to a finishing stone. Not to say that all Nakayama stones are fine and even, but the majority of authentic older stones you will find have a special luxuriant feel and cutting abilities. But I have to admit that they are expensive and not for casual users. The majoirity I have sold have gone to sharpening savants or collectors.

Currently we need to beware that many if not most of the stones sold on e-bay as Nakayama are not true marked Nakayama stones. True Nakayama toishi need to posses one or more of these stamps

http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~ttoishi/sub35.htm

or http://www.shinise.ne.jp/highgrade/hatanaka

or http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/hatanaka/index.html

or at http://oldschoolshaving.net/Japanese_hones.html

or http://www.thejapanblade.com/nakayama6.htm

If they do not have any of those stamps then you have to look at the seller with a careful and clear mind. Stones that are vaguely marked Yamashiro or Honyama are not authenticated Nakayama stones and I am sure that current owner of the Nakayama mine would concur.


There are un-marked Nakayama stones in Japan, just like there are un-marked Nakayama stones here in the US. They are stones that have been used enough so that the ink stamps are worn off or they are stones that were bought from the Nakayama mine as raw stock by other miners (not the general public), or they are in the Imperial palace or in some other documented collection. So-san from Japan_Tools suggests that his father can differentiate between stones from particular mines that are not marked by inspecting the stones skin, if one is intact. I believe what he claims, but it must take years of looking at stones and talking with miners to be able to do this.

The only actual Nakayama stones new to the market are released by Hatanaka-san, the current owner of the Nakayama mine. He alone owns and has legal use of the Nakayama name and the copyrighted names associated with it. And he has the right to ink stamp any and all of the mines leftover inventory from generations gone by. It is a family business and I am led to believe that many his new releases are slabbed up from huge storage lockers of raw stone that was mined from the time when his father was a partner with Kato-san along with the left over stone from Kato-sans lockers. Two of the above links are to Hatanaka-sans stone boutique another is to the ProShop the main retail outlet for Nakayama toishi in Japan and the other is to OldSchoolShaving and the last if from my site where I have documented stones from Kato-sans era. Hatanaka-san is managing the business just as shrewdly as Kato by not flooding the market with their stones which move from him to selected others, and he is also monitoring the activities of forgers. His company is at the top of the pyramid in the tennen toishi world and his family name is paramont to him and his heirs and there are no compromises.

You will find from retailers that any full size decent documented Nakayama stone for plane blades refered to as GRADE #30 (minumum 205mm x 75mm x 24mm thick) will be $600 and up, and that any really fine stone is $2000 and up. Any really great stone if you can find one for sale will be $25,000 and up and these are normally retained by Hatakana-san for sale for his own clients. I have personally seen stones in the $75,000 price range in his shop.

Rest assured that any Nakayama stones that are selling for $39.95 to $149.50 cents on E-bay with free shipping are not the real deal in 95% of the cases and if they are real they may have been obtained by means outside the normal channels.

There is only one Nakayama mine and it is on Mt.Atago and all Nakayama stones come from this mine and no other. It is just like you get Napa wine from Napa and Sonoma wine from Sonoma. There is a common mountian, Mt. Veeder that is in both counties and acts as a boarder, but the wines need to be labeled as one or the other.

The Nakayama mine is currently closed and was bulldozed and sealed by Ishihara-san the owner of the Ohira mine. There are other mines on Mt. Atago, Shoubu is one. Mt. Atago (google the satalite maps and views of) does have a peak and it also has minor sub peaks and foothills that surround it and these are considered by most to be Mt. Atago proper. Many of the other mines that you read about like Narutaki, Okudo, Ohira, Sinden etc are associated with Atago but are normally classed as western or eastern mines depending on which side of the peak they reside. Across the valley on the other side of the river near that town of Takeo is the Sougandani mine and there are other fine stone being mine in closeby regions which is sometimes refered to as Tanba or geologically known as the Tanba Terranes.

This is sort of an overview of the Nakayama mine and its owners but ofcourse the true value of these stones is in using them. Alx

Wow, great post Mr Alex.

I was wondering that now synthetic stones are
getting better and better and also in high grits(I
saw a japanese one at 20.000 and also the shaptons
at 30.000), will this not take away the desire many people
have to buy a japanese natural?

Which in turn will reduce the price of Japanese
natural stones?

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Even though there are high grit synthetics out there, there is still no comparison or substitution of natural hones. I'd take any one of my natural hones over even a 100k hone, if they existed.



Unlike synthetic hones which can be mass produced permanently, natural hones are limited in numbers. Take ones from Kyoto for example, today there are only two mines/quarries still in operation, eventually the hones that come from mines which are shut down, will become an even rarer commodity than they already are. Prices can only remain the same or increase. Fortunately because I do not own a business, I do not have to pay overheads, or middlemen etc, I am the first to supply high quality Japanese naturals at the lowest prices, that even the average Joe van afford. As for other vendors that do operate business, they will never be able to make their prices lower without driving their business into the ground.

There are synthetic diamonds out there these days too, but they certainly haven't brought down the cost of natural diamonds. It's kinda the same thing.

Good points made OS.

Still, I ask you if you could get a synthetic hone(cheap price) that was as good as the best natural hone, which one would you choose?