Coticule Hones

[zib]

I care about people and I care about this forum, That's why when I see people making mistakes, I have to say something. Let me tell you what I know about Coticules. I know Coticules are a prescious, limited resource, meaning one day, they'll be gone. We'll be talking about them like the Escher or Nakayama. Ardennes will mining construction rock instead of Coticule.

They recently had to open a mine that's been shut since the 60's. The last mine ran dry. Here's some excert's from one of my many emails to Rob Celis. if you don't know, he's the Owner/Operator of Ardennes Coticule.

Here are his thoughts about lapping Coticules.....

Please explain your customers that these are natural sharpening stones. Completely made by hand!

About lapping stones:
I'm worried that a lot of Coticule users lap their stones too much!
These stones were used hundreds of years without any form of lapping!!
Actually its not necessary to lap a Coticule ...
Coticules can pass a complete generation of straight razor honing! But yes, if people start removing lot's of millimeters from the precious Coticule layer than the stone will only pass some years ...
Don't forget: Coticule is very rare! Each piece is used for honing in some way (rectangular stones, irregular stones, little pieces for chisels, and so on ...).

Read this part carefully, He's saying what I've been saying, once gone, they're gone. They shut one mine and opened an old one. Coticule is getting scarce guys...

A lot of Coticule is already extracted! As soon as our quarry and mine are empty it's OVER with Coticule stones for ever!
That's why I really hate all that lapping.


We don't have much 6x2" and 8x3" stones in Selected quality, these are very rare stones! Sometimes we only produce 25 of them each month. We produce thousands of irregular shaped stones in smaller formats, rectangular stones in smaller formats

A lot of guys ask for a specific vein, It doesn't matter guys, other than it sounds cool. To quote Kill Bill vol 2. Uma Thurman, "Why do they call themselves the crazy 88's? David Carradine, " I don't know, probably cause it sounds cool?"

You are right about the fact that it doesn't matter from which vein a stone comes. All stones sold to straight razor vendors are perfect for SR honing.

Sometimes a stone will have a vein on it, or a line that looks like a crack, but is not, you can't even feel it. They never interfere with honing. I would never sell you something that would harm a razor. Here are Rob's thoughts:


If I say that the line on the 6x2" stone isn't a crack you can believe. There's a huge different between a so called crack which means that two parts of the stone are separated from each other and a line that has another color than the rest of the stone. This line was formed under high pressure and simply contains some other minerals. Your stones came from one of the two BEST veins available for straight razor honing! Those two veins have a thickness between 4 and 7 mm. That's completely normal!

I hope this helps some of you. I wanted to share this information. I also hope this clears up some issue and questions some of you may have.


One more thing: Vintage Coticules. Guys, these stones are 500 million years old. Do you think 70 years makes a difference?
yes, owning something from the 1940's or 1920's is cool. I love vintage stuff, especially razors. Does it make a stone better, no. It depends on the stone itself, Do no be lured into believe that if a stone is Vintage, it is somehow better. The proof is in the pudding as they say....
Thanks.....

[holli4pirating]

I'm not a coticule expert, but I would like to throw out a few of my thoughts.

There are lots of old hones that pop up that are really dished. Maybe some people got those hones to work for them; maybe not. But, if you hone lot of razors on a coticule and you raise a slurry for honing, there is no way you're not going to dish your stone. If you use your coticule for 10 laps with just water as a finisher, you most likely will not need to lap with frequency (if at all). It seems that lapping in general is a somewhat debated issue, but, in my opinion, saying that a hone should not be lapped because it is "rare" does not make sense. The way I see it, the hones are there to be used, not to sit and look pretty. Personally, I refresh the surface every now and then as I see it to be needed.

As for the rarety... who knows. Is it possible that mine owners are being honest when they say it's almost all gone? Of course. Could that be a marketing thing? Of course. I do not know these people and will not make or suggest anyone else make a character judgement on them. But, whenever I read something, I do so with a skeptical eye; that's just the way I was brought up and taught. Again, I'm not saying they are lying.

Does the layer matter? Here I don't know much, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I was under the impression that coticules from different layers tend to have different cutting properties. Bart's website is a good resource here, and I'll double check when I have a chance. I do know for sure that there are coti's that are soft and that are hard, some are faster than others. I don't know if that is the "grading" or the layer or neither. Please do tell us.

With regards to vintage, I do believe, and I could be wrong, that vintage coti's are likely to be better for two reasons. One is people, in general, don't preserve low quality objects; if I have a bad hone it's the first I'll experiment on or risk in some way. Second, if you are BBQing and you make 50 burgers, you're going to serve up the best ones first - if you own a mine and mine out 1000 hones, I would think you'd process the best ones first. If you own a mine and there are 100 places to mine, I would think you're gonna mine the 10 best ones first. Does that mean there are no good ones left? Of course not. But the chances of a vintage one being really good seem higher to me. Unless my logic is flawed, which is more than possible.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think there are any absolutes here. Coticules are as complicated as they are versitile - those two just go hand in hand. There are no black and white answers to these questions.

[zib]

Coticules for Straight Razors come from different veins than Coticules say for Tools.
If I'm not mistaken, Bart's stones are standard grade. He takes the time to evaluate each stone's ability and posts the data on his website. He does this all for his love of the stones, he makes no profit doing it, and is not compensated in any way by the quarry. He is the one to talk to about Coticules. He knows more about the stones than the quarry. that's my opinion.

The belief is pinkish Coti's cut faster, or softer. Harder are slower generally. Vein has nothing to do with it. I was told this by Rob Celis of Ardennes. It's the stone itself. But, all Coti's cut faster with a slurry, even the non pink ones, which is why I feel Vintage is not nesesarily better. It depends on the stone itself. Even the info can be contrary to the hone.

Coticules have always been prized by Barbes and expensive, Barber's kept all their stones, I dont' think the vintage one's are still around because they were better. It's like anything else, There are old razors on ebay that are junk, but there still around. My point is 100 years is a drop in the bucket compared to 500 million years to form a stone....I could have stone mined today that's works better than a vintage stones. Again, it depends on the stone.

I've known the Celis family for a while now, and have talked to them in detail. I don't see why he would deliberately lie to me when I'm trying to buy stones. They (Coticules)are hard to come by.
You didn't get to read the enitre email, but many of the vendors have been waiting 6 months or more for hones. One mine ran dry, the just opened one that was closed since the 60's. The have more orders than stones, so trying to boost sales is stupid. This is not a marketing thing. Ask any vendor trying to buy stones, how hard it is...and how long they wait. Ask Bart who's been to the quarry and has seen empty shelfs for months. No vendor could get 8x3's for months. Howard just gave up on 8x3's
As a matter of fact, Howard is the one who brought to my attention the Vintage Coti thing. He said, given the age of these hones, 100 years makes no difference....and like him or not, Howard is a smart man.

You bring up a good point about dished stones. many of the old Barber's never lapped their hones. That's why many a vintage Coticule looks that way. They felt, as do the folks at the quarry that your just wasting stone. For the average use, one guy doing his razors for himself, not a business, doesn't really need to lapp all tha often. How often do you actually hone a razor. Mine hold their edge quite well, I do have a lot, and a lot of hones. I lapp my hones when they need it, and it depends on the hone.

This is a hot topic. Some guys have to have that plate that's .00001 flat. Some of it's overkill if you ask me, but it is needed to some degree....

Guys, with all due respect, Coticules are rare, especially 6x2's and 8x3's Do not unnecessarily lapp your stone, do so only if needed.
The quarry has more orders than it can fill. They have run out of stones before and will again, The quarry is now closed until April. As Rob said, one day, these stones will be gone, just like Eshcers, and Nakayama's. Both are mined out...It happens...

[rayman]

I'm not a coticule expert, but I would like to throw out a few of my thoughts.

There are lots of old hones that pop up that are really dished. Maybe some people got those hones to work for them; maybe not. But, if you hone lot of razors on a coticule and you raise a slurry for honing, there is no way you're not going to dish your stone. If you use your coticule for 10 laps with just water as a finisher, you most likely will not need to lap with frequency (if at all). It seems that lapping in general is a somewhat debated issue, but, in my opinion, saying that a hone should not be lapped because it is "rare" does not make sense. The way I see it, the hones are there to be used, not to sit and look pretty. Personally, I refresh the surface every now and then as I see it to be needed.

I have honed almost 70 razors over the last month on my coticule, 29 of those were just last week. I just decided to check the dishing of the stone, for purposes of replying to your comments.

The stone was, in fact, dished slightly. From past experience I would say about the same amount as a Naniwa 3k after 2 razors. Quite a bit of difference there. I can also say that the small amount of dishing had no effect on the final finish.

Feedback from the owners has been incredibly positive. Perhaps some of them might even comment here about them.

As for the rarety... who knows. Is it possible that mine owners are being honest when they say it's almost all gone? Of course. Could that be a marketing thing? Of course. I do not know these people and will not make or suggest anyone else make a character judgement on them. But, whenever I read something, I do so with a skeptical eye; that's just the way I was brought up and taught. Again, I'm not saying they are lying.

The mine owners are dealing with a commodity. If you are familure with these, things like gold, silver, coffee, corn, etc., you would know that it is a necessity to make your profits NOW and move on. The middle men and collectors are the only ones who usually have the ability to waite for prices to "possibly" rise. Mine owners and operators don't. Coticule fragments are mined, in an area, until the amount found is unprofitable, then it is time to pack up and move to another area.

Does the layer matter? Here I don't know much, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I was under the impression that coticules from different layers tend to have different cutting properties. Bart's website is a good resource here, and I'll double check when I have a chance. I do know for sure that there are coti's that are soft and that are hard, some are faster than others. I don't know if that is the "grading" or the layer or neither. Please do tell us.

Yes, mine locations do matter. Just like any other commodity.

With regards to vintage, I do believe, and I could be wrong, that vintage coti's are likely to be better for two reasons. One is people, in general, don't preserve low quality objects; if I have a bad hone it's the first I'll experiment on or risk in some way. Second, if you are BBQing and you make 50 burgers, you're going to serve up the best ones first - if you own a mine and mine out 1000 hones, I would think you'd process the best ones first. If you own a mine and there are 100 places to mine, I would think you're gonna mine the 10 best ones first. Does that mean there are no good ones left? Of course not. But the chances of a vintage one being really good seem higher to me. Unless my logic is flawed, which is more than possible.

Can't remark on this part, because I am not the miner. The coticule is a natural stone, so the distribution of garnets is not necessarily consistant throughout the whole layer. You would take what ever nature gives you, and maybe not everything is usable for our purposes, or maybe just a small percentage.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think there are any absolutes here. Coticules are as complicated as they are versitile - those two just go hand in hand. There are no black and white answers to these questions.

I hope this helps explain some of this from a different point of view.
Ray

[Bart]

First off, I can't really comment on the rarity of Coticules.
But I've visited the area several times. There's still Coticule in the underground, at various locations. But the age when workers could be send into dangerous, unsecured shafts, to excavated rock at a small fee per usable rock, has passed, at least on our part of the world. It's practically a miracle that a guy like Maurice Celis had the passion to take over a nearly bankrupt mining company (debts included!) and figure out a way for that business to survive.
It's not as if they are mining the last bits of Coticule left.
But if Ardennes ever quits, the rest will most likely remain unseen and unused. In that sense, Coticules are rare indeed.
[/QUOTE]

There are lots of old hones that pop up that are really dished. Maybe some people got those hones to work for them; maybe not.

I can testify out of first hand experience, that honing a razor on a less than flat Coticule yields perfect results.
The fact that a lot of these old specimen are dished proofs that point. A lot of them are dished way beyond a level that we would consider acceptable today. But ask yourselves this question: how did they become so dished?
If a little dishing really was that ineffective, why on Earth would anyone keep honing on it till it was dished as heavily as we often see on vintage Coticules?

But, if you hone lot of razors on a coticule and you raise a slurry for honing, there is no way you're not going to dish your stone.

True, but if you make it a habit to raise the slurry mainly on the corners of the hone, and rotate the hone in between razors, many razors can be honed on one (I'm talking about full honing jobs), without much obvious dishing. They won't remain "straight edge" flat, but certainly flat enough to notice no ill effects on the resulting edges.

It seems that lapping in general is a somewhat debated issue, but, in my opinion, saying that a hone should not be lapped because it is "rare" does not make sense.

Agreed, "rare" is no valid reason. I think Rob Celis just finds it a pity that a Coticule would wear from unneeded lapping.
I think the need to lap has much more to do with the fact that some hones glaze over. Coticules don't glaze.

Does the layer matter? Here I don't know much, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I was under the impression that coticules from different layers tend to have different cutting properties. Bart's website is a good resource here, and I'll double check when I have a chance. I do know for sure that there are coti's that are soft and that are hard, some are faster than others. I don't know if that is the "grading" or the layer or neither. Please do tell us.

I have submitted over 40 Coticules to elaborate tests. That includes a number of vintage ones. I have not encountered one that was not capable of delivering a very good shaving edge. There's quite some variety in honing feel and feedback, also in speed when used with slurry, speed when used with water (I'm mentioning both separately, because they are not related). There's only marginal difference in the resulting edges. Some layers seem to offer hones with consistent properties, other layers offer hones with a wider variety. There is no better or worse here, just differences and personal preferences. I have found zero evidence to sustain any claim that vintage Coticules would be better, or generally different.

If you own a mine and mine out 1000 hones, I would think you'd process the best ones first. If you own a mine and there are 100 places to mine, I would think you're gonna mine the 10 best ones first.

They're still mining at the same places they always did.
Old Rock, which was in the old days marketed as "exceptional quality", obtained part of their raw rocks at
the location Ardennes is quarrying today. Old Rock also had a mine of their own. It's closed, but not depleted.
The fact is, Coticules are excavated from layers that run diagonally into the Earth's crust. Each new year they are digging deeper. The logic is not that they mined what was best, but what was easiest to access.

Best regards,
Bart.

[richmondesi]

Great thread guys. Thanks

[niftyshaving]

....
. Let me tell you what I know about Coticules. I know Coticules are a prescious, limited resource, meaning one day, they'll be gone. We'll be talking about them like the Escher or Nakayama. Ardennes will mining construction rock instead of Coticule.
......
Thanks.....

Zib,

Thank you for your post.

As a geologist I can verify what you are telling us. Quality natural hone stone is rare.

In addition I can say that when the current Coticle quarries are mined
out there will be no more Coticles. Some will find this statement problematic but it makes sense because coticles only come from these quarries.
While unlikely if rock of the same composition and quality was found 1000 miles to the east we would not call it coticle for the same reason that Champaign only comes from a specific region of France. Sparkling wine from
California no matter how good will never be Champaign.

Back to the rare part. In my grandfathers day one traveled by horse, rail or sailing ship. Stone for a hone is heavy and bulky and if quality rock could be found a days ride (20 miles) away folk would use it and not import stone
from half the world away. The old guys looked hard in their own backyard
and if good rock was found we would know about it.

This rarity issue applies to oil, copper, gold, oak, timber and makes a point for conservation as an important global issue.

As for flat we do go a bit nuts on this point. If the bevel is set on
a flat stone then moving that 'set' blade to a fine hone will present
that hone with a flat back and blade keeping the hone flat in the way
that matters (baring odd xyz strokes.).

The dished out belly that develops on a hone with time is little different than adding tape to the spine. The math wizards can do the computation and comment on the radius of dishing in terms of layers of tape.

Further there are ways a user can balance the use of his hone surface
keeping the dishing from getting out of control. And if the user rotates
his razors, the blades and hone will grow old together and perhaps even smile
at you in the bathroom mirror as they shave you BBS.

An important group, the honemasters, do have a need to ship blades honed
on nearly flat hones -- because the new customer hones are also flat
and flat is the best world to stay comparably sharp on. DMT flats, film on glass, Nortons, balsa hones and the like solve this problem for the community.

Another world where flat is necessary is the group that takes the blade out to
220 grit and back to a finishing hone each month. When switching stones it is important for each grit to present the same look/ face to a blade. Goofy group.

Coticle is also unique in that it may be the only stone that changes based
on the slurry water ratio. In that regard a barber or home user only
needs use water and the slurry stone in different ways to change effective cutting strength eliminating the need for a set of matched stones to service his razors.

So +1, I agree many of us are too fussy with our finishing grade naturals.

[holli4pirating]

There's been a lot said since I last checked in, so I'd like to respond to some things and ask some more questions. But first, I want to make something very clear. Nothing that I say is personal. I don't care if you're right or I'm right or if we're both right or if neither is right. All I care about is that there is good and diverse information available on the forum. My posts are not to attack anyone and I don't read responses as attacks against me. I apologize if what I say comes off as overly critical, but I think it is very important to question things you read. I don't take anything for granted unless I am 100% confident in the source; I'm not sure that there is anything on this forum that I am 100% confident in, regardless of who wrote it. For these reasons, I try to qualify my posts by explaining that what I say is about my own experiences with my razors on my hones (or whatever), or based on what I have read (and I try to cite if I can), or based on my own logic - I then leave it to the reader to make their own decisions. I read everything with those qualifications in mind, and I think it is important to do so. So, that said...

Zib, yours was the first post, so I'll start there:
It is entirely possible that vintage stones aren't still around because they are better. I certainly don't know; I don't think anyone can know without trying all the coticules in the world, vintage and new, and compiling some serious data. I am speculating, much as I believe you are. There sure are a lot of junky old razors around, but, then again, one can buy pretty much any vintage razor and, if that razor can be honed, it will be at least a very good shaver. This is not true of new production razors, if you consider the Masters and the Zeepk's and all those. There is a difference between junk steel and razors in junk condition; I don't know of old razors with junk steel.

I never said anyone was lying; I said I suspend judgment. You are entirely correct, you saw the whole email and I didn't. None of us did, actually. And your relationship with them is different from mine or anyone else's. As such, you may have reason to approach what they say less critically than I do or others do. I would hope you would not say it's a bad thing for me to critically read information from sources that I have no background knowledge of. I read everything critically when I have no background knowledge; to do otherwise is to accept something on blind faith.

With regards to barbers lapping or not lapping their hones, you said it's because the hones were precious and they didn't want to waste them. I've not actually talked to any old barbers, so I don't know. Perhaps you have and perhaps you haven't - I don't know. If you have, I don't know how many. What I can say, though, is that looks like a large generalization without any clear support, so I approach that statement critically.

For individuals lapping their own or needing to, I think that varies a lot. I use my coti with water only, and mine is pretty hard. I may never need to lap it. But maybe someone out there has a soft one they use to set bevels on loads of wedges. Maybe that person has a technique such that they can hone on uneven hones, or maybe he'll beat his head against a wall and hone till his coti is totally gone and never get there. I thought I said lapping should be approached on a case by case basis depending on lots or variables - if not, let me say that clearly now.

Should people lap or not - well, I generally frown on wastefulness, but people own their coti's and it's up to them to do what they want with them. There are mods to razors that I hate to see and it pains me to see a nice vintage razor that's been terribly mis-honed, but it happens. There are others out there. No, not an infinite supply, but enough that it doesn't keep me up at night. To be clear - these are personal statements about how I feel; nothing more.

RayMan: You mentioned that you honed 70 razors on your coti and didn't notice much dishing. But there is a lot that you haven't said. How much time did each razor see on your coti? Did you set bevels or just do 10 strokes? Was there slurry involved? Do you have a hard coti, or a soft one that generates slurry by itself when honed on with just water? Were the razors hard steel or soft steel? In my previous post, I mentioned that just doing a few passes will not likely dish a coti, but repeatedly using heavy slurry probably will. Thus far, I don't think we disagree on anything. Do we?

With regards to the profit thing - it seems like there are more variables here than mentioned. From Bart's post, it sounds like there is lots of coti in the ground, but the wages vs risk is a big factor in getting it out; one must consider what rare means. Also note, I clearly stated I am not implying that there is profiteering or misinformation going on. I simply stated that I would approach statements about rarity and value with skepticism. It seems like my statements here were read as being accusatory towards the mine/miners/owners. That was not my intent in any way.

I appreciate that you share in expressing what you don't know about various things, like vintage vs new, how various hones from different layers and locations behave, etc. I'm also glad that you started your statements by expressing the uncertainty that I expressed in my post.

Bart: With regards to dishing, I'm not totally convinced that dished hones can work or should be used to hone (maybe those are two separate things). Here's a few reasons why. There are lots of frowning razors out there, but I always take a frown out of a razor while setting the bevel. The frown got there somehow, but it doesn't mean it was shaving well. There are razors out there with multiple bevels; the bevels must have been reset numbers of times. This makes me think some were bad for shaving or steel was removed needlessly. Either way - bad (imo). I've read a lot of threads on here where people hone and hone and hone and can't get a bevel - I've done it myself. That is continual use that is unsuccessful - maybe that's happened to people in the past. There seem to be a lot of people on the forum who think that back in the day, razors were not particularly sharp, and people were just getting by - there was a thread about this recently. It seems a lot about the success of shavers back in the day is assumed and unknown. I myself don't know, and I suspend judgment. I would expect that with hones and razors, we see some that were masterfully used and some that were terribly mistreated and some in the middle. I have no idea which are which.

Your point about raising slurry on parts that the razor does not heavily wear is extremely valuable. I had not considered that before. I would like to point out, however, that this will prevent dishing. To practice this to avoid dishing makes me thing that dishing is less than ideal. Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know. You also said flat enough to avoid ill effects; if I was to read that blindly, I would say that that means flat is important, which would make me think dished is bad. Again, I don't know...

Bart, you mention differences, and I've noticed on your site you rate the edges you can get off coticules. What I'm curious is, are those differences based, in general, on the vein, the grade, both, other factors, or a combination. My initial response was where it seem to me that Zib was saying select is select is select and the vein didn't matter, and, from what I saw on your site and in other reading, that was not the case. So I guess I'm saying "I don't know, but I don't think so..."

With regards to mining the best, I thought I said, but maybe I didn't - I meant to also include that if you pull out X hone sized rocks, and there is a "vast quantity" still in the ground, you're more likely to reject "substandard" ones and only process "excellent" ones. So it's not only a question of what was mined, but also what was processed and sold. Again, I could be wrong, I think I said I'm not sure, but if I didn't - I'm not sure.

Nifty: Yes, a uniform dish can be like adding tape. But, I would point out that there has been a lot of controversy about how adding tape affects the edge and the razor over it's "lifetime." Personally, I think that over the razor's lifetime is... weak at best because not much metal is removed over a normal razor's lifetime (Yes, there are lots of worn down razors out there, but we don't know what they were subjected to...). In much the same way that there seems to be no right or wrong or clear answer (as far as I know) in the taping argument, I don't think there can be one in the dished argument.

The question of should honemeisters, or anyone honing for others, maintain flat stones because that's what others have is an interesting one indeed. I'd not considered that before, actually. Very interesting...

I'm not sure whether or not your last statement (coti is unique because...) is accurate. I've got a number of hones that are different based on whether I use slurry, how much slurry I use, and how broken down the slurry is. The coti may be the most widely used hone like this (though I also don't know if that's true, but it seems that way to me - note the uncertainty), but I am quite sure it's not the only on.

Let me close by saying again, nothing personal, there's lots I don't know, there's lots that is disagreed upon, there's lots that works and lots of different ways to do things. Whether I'm right or wrong, I'm just as happy so long as there is good, usable, and complete (so much as complete is possible) information out there for others to use.

[zib]

Wow, Guys, I just had some info from the quarry and wanted to share it, that's all.
I've been getting a lot of emails and pm's and thought it'd be a good idea to share.
I'm not an expert by any means. I talk to Bart and Rob at the quarry. I also talk to Howard at the perfect edge, Tony Miller, Don at SRD, and I haven't spoke to Lynn in a while. I also speak to Bob Keyes aka Altima55. This is where i get my info, but this original thread was really an email from Rob paraphrased...

If I had known that my comments would scrutinized like this, I would never have posted. I didn't mean to set Holli off like that, or imply anything. I may ask the mods to delete this thread all together....

[holli4pirating]

There certainly has been some interesting discussion, but I wouldn't say that I've been set off. I'm not attacking anyone or trying to be defensive. I'm just trying to clearly state what I mean and avoid misunderstandings. This is not personal to me, and I hope it isn't to anyone else. It's just about getting good information out there for others to use. I hope that's all any of us want to do, though we may not always agree on what constitutes good information.

Should the mods, or anyone else decide to delete, that is their call - I'll leave that to more capable minds than my own. And should the mods or anyone else take issue with what I've said, I will approach that with a totally open mind and would like to hear about it so I do not unintentionally cause any issues in the future. Either way, I'll stay out of this thread from hereon. Since I will no longer comment here, I would ask that others refrain from commenting on my previous posts. Please disregard them, as I have no wish to be misunderstood or to offend anyone.

I'm here to learn and, hopefully to help others learn in some way too, not to be right or to make anyone believe as I do. I hope that is always clear.