Jnat bevel setter?

There have been some binsui jnat stones on ebay, item #200422233034, they come in a courser red which is estimated at between 600-800 grit and a white at 800-1000 grit. I was wondering if anyone here has used these or if anyone thinks that they might work as a natural bevel setter. The ad says they are used for removing damage and rust from chef knives and such but makes no mention of razors, I am wondering if they might be a little rough for a fine edge like on a razor. Would I be wasting my money? Thanks.

-Jason

IIRC, hi_bud_gl and 0livia have both tried the Amakusa Red and found that it was not suitable for razors. Inclusions and other inconsistancies in the stones. Not sure about the white, though; I've not seen anyone try. The Aoto could be used as a bevel setter, if you don't have too much work to do. I have one (for the moment), but I use it after a Norton 1k, not to set bevels.

Thanks,
I was worried about that since it said the red has kind of a wood grain structure to it. If no one else has tried the white maybe i'll give it a try although being such a newbie to all this I dont think I would be a very credible reviewer.
What would a progression of jnats for razors look like? Would the aoto be the bottom end and nakayama's the top, or am I wrong even with those? What would be some of the middle stones names I would be looking for? I have seen some lyoto stones which are supposedly 1-5000 grit and are said to be far more abrasive than aoto so maybe those would be the starting point, has anyone used a lyoto on razors?

-Jason

I wish I knew, and I wish I could answer. The Aoto is rated around 2-3k, and I beileve Nakayama's are usually finishers (though I think Nakayama is just the name of a mine, not the stones in general). I have an Asagi that I finish on.

I have usually been lucky buying stones. I like my Iyo. It is not a natural version of Shapton 1000, and so I don't use it often for sharpening. I use it as a scrubber to clean stones and as a nagura on some stones ( 4-5k range) as the "grit" seems to break down quite fine and quick.

It makes a good third stone for keeping your middle and finish stone up and running. mine is clean and nearly all white. For a purists approach it can do the coarse work but not as well as synthetic water stone

I did some reading on the Iyo and (at least on the woodworker's forum) has been noted to dish easily. 330mate.com gives it a 3 of 5 which would make it similar to the Aoto (maybe a little harder).

FWIW, So on Japan Tool slots the Aoto as a stone to use between 2K and 6-8K. It seems his recommendation is to use a 1000 (synthetic)> 2000 (synthetic) > Aoto > natural medium finishing stone > natural finishing stone.

Can I ask why you want a Jnat bevel setter? I mean I'm sure you can get one (Hell, you can set a bevel on a sidewalk if you wanted to). But frankly, a DMT F/EF seems like a better tool for the job. And if you don't like DMT's there are any number of 1k Synthetics that should work fine. Basically what I'm asking is if there is some reason other than performance you are looking at a Jnat?

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Originally Posted by IanS

But frankly, a DMT F/EF seems like a better tool for the job.

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Frankly, how do you know that? Do you know of a Jnat bevel setter? Do you know it's not as good as a DMT F or EF?

I can tell you have DMT's or at least really like them. That is your personal preference based on your (seemingly) limited experiences with hones. I know of lots of hones I prefer over DMT's, and yes, I have used DMT's. I'd also bet there are lots of other great ones out there that I don't know about yet. That's the whole point, to learn. And you have to try things to learn about them.

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

If no one else has tried the white maybe i'll give it a try although being such a newbie to all this I dont think I would be a very credible reviewer.

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Here's the problem, if you're not very experienced with honing how would you know if the hone works at all? I've seen few edges from people who are new to honing and they can't get it right even with well tested hones (even though they seem to think the razors are great, they usually lack quite a bit in comfort and often in sharpness).
Then there's the question about buying rocks just because they seem inexpensive. There are only a handful of sellers of japanese hones who have the expertise and can ensure the hone is suitable for a razor and won't be damaging the edge. If you're not buying from one of them you're taking a fairly big gamble, especially with japanese stones which typically have all kinds of impurities.

The best in my opinion is to use something that's tested and consistent on razors. Once you've gotten good with that and feel like playing with new stuff, sure, try whatever you want, you'll have a benchmark to compare to.

Holli;
The three things that I find to be of concern for a bevel setting stone are that it's level, consistent, and fast.

Diamond plates have three major advantages which happen to be that they are always level, are always perfectly consistent, and are much faster than any similar grit stone (ridiculously faster according to DMT).

If there's a stone that can be maintained flatter than a 1/4" thick steel plate or made harder than a diamond, then you might argue that naturals offer superior bevel setting. But really the only complaint I've ever seen leveled against a DMT are that its scratches are relatively deep. Maybe if you intend to go from Beveling to finishing polish that's a problem (actually I've done that and it's really not that bad even), but throw a middle stone in there in the range of 4-8k and those "deep" scratches polish out just fine.

When I was looking for a Jnat at low grits, every expert I spoke to and every web reference I could find recommended synths until at least AOTO. For me, using razors, that translated to "Synthetic bevel setter". I'm sure there are divergent opinions, but I couldn't find any. So no, I have no experience with Japanese bevel setters. I haven't found many people who do, despite there being lots of people with experience with Japanese stones at higher grits. That may not be enough for you, but for me it's plenty telling.

I mostly agree with Ian here, but that doesn't mean I'll stop looking.

The Iyo has a chance. The fact that it dishes for woodworkers shouldn't necessarily bother us because we don't use the pressure they do.

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Originally Posted by IanS

Holli;
The three things that I find to be of concern for a bevel setting stone are that it's level, consistent, and fast.

Diamond plates have three major advantages which happen to be that they are always level, are always perfectly consistent, and are much faster than any similar grit stone (ridiculously faster according to DMT)

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Absolutely correct except for one small flaw, DMT's can be rather harsh on razor edges...

People buy them exactly for the reasons you posted and they do work, OK, especially if the have been broken in well, and you use a drop of soap, and the razor is not chippy, and the razor is not a full/extra hollow grind, and you don't use too much pressure (even one lap), see where the downsides start adding up???... I use them,(for restoration) and many others do too, but you have to take the cutting speed, with a large grain of salt also...They can be almost to much of a good thing...

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Originally Posted by gugi

Then there's the question about buying rocks just because they seem inexpensive. There are only a handful of sellers of japanese hones who have the expertise and can ensure the hone is suitable for a razor and won't be damaging the edge. If you're not buying from one of them you're taking a fairly big gamble, especially with japanese stones which typically have all kinds of impurities.

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EXCELLENT POINTS

I don't use dmt's anymore. I used too before and as Glenn mentioned above so many and's in dmt use.
i would not recommend dmt to anyone and mainly if you accidentally make 1 stroke with pressure it will scratch the blade.
next bad is they do worn out sooner or later you will realize they are way slower then when you start using them.
I do understand they 1200 and 8000 will leave great straight edge . Even after 8000 dmt you cannot get a good shave.
hope this helps

One other problem, at least in my experience, is that dmt offer absolutely no feedback. The closest thing I have come to in finding a natural bevel setter is funny enough a binsui white stone or an amakusa white they are both at around 1k and frankly are in my opinion far inferior to a naniwa, gs or any other synthetic 1k.
I would say go with a gs or naniwa, the naniwa offers awesome feedback almost like it has training weels and the gs is just really convenient and offers decent feedback, overall I would go with naniwa but thats just me.

I've broken in three. It's not particularly difficult. The pamphlet they send with them tells you to rub an old tool for a few passes and you're golden... that's how it went for me. I'm not sure what constitutes breaking in well though.

As for the razor not being chippy... I use my 220 to remove chips. Is there some problem with trying to bevel with the 1200 without removing chips first (other than the chips remaining since the 1200 doesn't remove material fast enough to smooth them out without hours of work)? I check the edge under 100x every few minutes (to minimize material lost) and haven't noticed any chips ever deepening or anything of that nature.

What's the problem with extra hollows? Some of my best shavers are EH's I've repaired and beveled on my DMT's. Hell, I've only been impressed with their performance on EH compared to other razors. I do a handful of passes, inspect the edge and have a "holy crap, I'm done already" moment almost every time. I've been able to undo years of abuse in a couple minutes with pressure applied to the right points on an extra hollow. I'd certainly agree that if you applied pressure to the wrong points you could DO years worth of damage to a razor as well, but the DMT is a tool, if it's faster when used right, it's going to be faster when used wrong too.

Mem:
My continuous 220 gives no feedback, but my F/EF both give excellent feedback (maybe because they're interrupted, I've just assumed it was that the 220 was too low a grit).

I have never tried the interrupted ones so I can't comment, but the continuous surface ones are like running a piece of metal over slick glass. Reminds me of teflon for some reason.

Yeah... that's about how the 220 is. The interrupted are way different. I could tell you ~ how many passes I've given a razor on my F/EF by the SOUND it makes during the stroke. It's that good.


Edit:
I should note that the 220 has SOME feedback the first couple passes after a good brushing (I actually used a synthetic horsehair brush to keep it clean when I first got it and was actually bothering to try and keep feedback on it). The problem really is that as soon as it starts clogging it does kind of hydroplane whatever you're working on... still chews though, so I learned to live with it. Hence the checking on the Chips with a scope. :P

who has a link to the woodworkers forum discussion of Iyo. I'd like to see that if you don't mind Thanks!

Someone would ask... I am not sure if these are the ones to which I was referring (don't have time to re-read them now):

Anyone using Japanese natural waterstones? - Woodwork Forums

Natural Japanese waterstones - Woodwork Forums

Ok, I have read those threads and realized I have no clue (my kids know this already) where I read that the Iyoto dishes easily.

OTOH, I have done some reading on various sword polishing sites including "3 Raven's Metalcraft" which has this in his blog:

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What is Iyoto…

By 3ravensmetalcraft Leave a Comment
Categories: Uncategorized
Tags: Toishi


Iyoto stone comes from the area around Iyo in the Ehime Prefecture in Japan. Records show that iyomeshime has been used for polishing blades since the Nara Period, but there appears to be some anecdotal evidence that it was in use nearly 400 years earlier. (The Nara Period is around 700AD, so the recorded history of Iyoto stone spans over 1300 years!)
The mines were closed for a period of about 30 years in the last century, but were reopened and new material is slowly working into the marketplace.
Some varieties of Iyoto, of which there are several, were used as the final stone in sword polishing for about 500 years, until the Honyama mines around Kyoto became active. In the present day, and I hope someone will correct me if I’m wrong, Iyoto stones are part of the final series of stones foundation polishing (EDIT: looks like they might be part of the chu-nagura as well as the koma nagura).
Like all of the Japanese natural polishing stones, it is very difficult to pin down what the grit size is in order to give an accurate description of the material. The natural world didn’t provide uniform grains when these sedimentary rocks formed, unlike modern, manufactured stones that are composed of finely graded abrasives. In the case of Iyoto, the best that can be done is to provide a range of grit sizes that might be present in any given stone.
That being said, for comparison’s sake, Iyoto is somewhere between 800 grit (JIS) and 1500 grit.
The curve ball is that there are Iyoto that push into the 3000 range. For another trick pitch on top of the curve ball, that 3000 grit might come from the stone you bought as an 800 and have been using for the past few years.
The abrasive agent in Japanese water stones doesn’t break down uniformly, and the cementing particles in the lithic structure aren’t uniform either. Call it “The Miracle of Nature” or “God has a sense of humor,” but this is part of the reason why these stones are so wonderful and mysterious… You never know if the so-so rock you bought might not turn out to be the treasure of your collection as time goes on.
Many people who are familiar with synthetic or natural water stones know about the Nagura stone. It is a stone used to raise up the abrasive on fine grit water stones. It provides, with water, a thick “milk” on the surface of your stone that lubricates and polishes as you use it.
Iyoto can be used as Nagura, as well as for polishing blades. I have found that Iyoto (white and Arinoki) make a thicker paste than Nagura, and polish even better.
I just received a small shipment of Narutaki and Uchigumori stone, and I absolutely can’t wait to see what my Iyoto slurry stones will add to polishing with such fine grained stones!

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2009 September « Three Ravens Metalcraft

I know this is kinda off topic, but anyone ever come across ANY natural bevel setter? Doesn't have to be Jnat. Was just curious if anyone found a decent one that would work for razors :)

Like a poster above, I am curious about the white amakusa...maybe it will work better than the red :shrug:

Maybe when I get some money, I'll try it unless someone beats me to it :)

Nice quote on the source of Iyo stones or Iyoto. Iyo is on the island of Shikokyu near the town of Matsuyama, a beautiful town with tons of history and host (youtube it) of the Matsuyama mikoshi samuri battle festival. Matsuyama is also known for their porcelain ware. In the mountians behind Matsuyama and Iyo are the mines that produce the raw materials for porcelain, kaolin. The stratas of kaolin and those stratas producing material for Iyo sharpening stones are very similar and close together, not only in Iyo but in other areas too of Japan. This is why every once in a while you will hear of a chef who sharpens his knives on the back rims of porcelain dinner plates.

Alx

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Originally Posted by avatar1999

I know this is kinda off topic, but anyone ever come across ANY natural bevel setter? Doesn't have to be Jnat. Was just curious if anyone found a decent one that would work for razors :)

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I'm getting surprising results from my Turkey stone, but am still to early in my experiments to say anything definitive. I will say this: their reputation for brittleness is earned. Mine is two inches thick and two inches wide. Of its four 6" x 2" surfaces, only one is crack-free.

Hi Pyment, heh that was 5 pages and didnt have time to read t this morning myself. I'll get to it later. Maybe it was japanese tools forum where we had a brief discussion on coarse nats. It was not the Iyo that dished easily. All stones dish so where's the issue is what I think.:)

Kevint,

then the impression is that the Iyo dish no more than similar grit stones?

The other question is, do you get an Iyo that is all white for consistency or with all the colors because they look cool?http://www.330mate.com/data/fujibato/product/2872-1.jpg
(I believe looking cool to be an important function of natural stones).

py I don't have a lot of them. It is for sure harder than aoto. harder than norton 220.

The woody ones are cool looking, perhaps fetching a premium for that reason.

I didnt price them; i just bought a cheap one on ebay, i have nothing to compare it to. I like it though and should probably pursue some stock for future use. a nice big chunk.

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far, each and every point has given me something to think about. I am sure the smart move would be to follow gugi's advice and get more experience under my belt before venturing beyond my limits, but I always let my curiosity get the best of me. I do have a couple pro-honed razors to compare edges against, one by Lynn and one by cedarfurnitureman off ebay. I can see IanS view of faster is better and going the DMT route but I am looking more for feel than speed, I am not too impressed with the feel of my nortons while honing. I wish I would of started with gugi's advice since I bought a Jnat finisher that feels so much better to hone on I find myself leaving the nortons behind before I should, and my finisher(if it even is one) does have its problems, which I could of waited to tackle until I had more experience to draw from. That though is why I love this forum so much, there is a vast field of experience to inquire about. Memorael stated that the naniwa's have a great feel to them, since that seems to be the main reason I am looking for a different bevel setter maybe that would be the solution that would work for me. It is just that I seem to have too much free time right now, I read through the forums then hang out on ebay and other sites looking for stuff to buy, I cant remember whos sig line says it but it says newbies stay away from ebay, I always seem to find good advice only after the bug has hit me that the advice would have prevented. Oh well, live and learn. Kevint, if I remember right you said your iyo is amost pure white and harder than aoto. I think 330mates description said that the pure white are the least abrasive and the grainy ones are more abrasive. Have you tried the grainy structured iyo, do they seem to follow the grit pattern as 330mate explains it?
Thanks again for all the help.

-Jason

that's good to know Jason; i had not seen that. I have been using it today just a short time ago. It is certainly on the slow side.

I've never found a reason to doubt Nakaoka's knowledge of his wares. I just accept the fact that I am not getting a hidden gem.

It has been cut up for nagura and scrub stones. One of the things i've changed in my honing is to use a scrub stone to keep the surface clean after an initial lapping on dia,plate.

I don't want to sound like I wouldn't wish it more aggressive if possible. Nevertheless with an aoto and suita I can do most anything but take out a chip, but those two are not the best pair for lapping each other. Add the Iyo in there and they can all be kept pretty flat.