Thread: Jnat bevel setter?

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

If no one else has tried the white maybe i'll give it a try although being such a newbie to all this I dont think I would be a very credible reviewer.

Here's the problem, if you're not very experienced with honing how would you know if the hone works at all? I've seen few edges from people who are new to honing and they can't get it right even with well tested hones (even though they seem to think the razors are great, they usually lack quite a bit in comfort and often in sharpness).
Then there's the question about buying rocks just because they seem inexpensive. There are only a handful of sellers of japanese hones who have the expertise and can ensure the hone is suitable for a razor and won't be damaging the edge. If you're not buying from one of them you're taking a fairly big gamble, especially with japanese stones which typically have all kinds of impurities.

The best in my opinion is to use something that's tested and consistent on razors. Once you've gotten good with that and feel like playing with new stuff, sure, try whatever you want, you'll have a benchmark to compare to.

Holli;
The three things that I find to be of concern for a bevel setting stone are that it's level, consistent, and fast.

Diamond plates have three major advantages which happen to be that they are always level, are always perfectly consistent, and are much faster than any similar grit stone (ridiculously faster according to DMT).

If there's a stone that can be maintained flatter than a 1/4" thick steel plate or made harder than a diamond, then you might argue that naturals offer superior bevel setting. But really the only complaint I've ever seen leveled against a DMT are that its scratches are relatively deep. Maybe if you intend to go from Beveling to finishing polish that's a problem (actually I've done that and it's really not that bad even), but throw a middle stone in there in the range of 4-8k and those "deep" scratches polish out just fine.

When I was looking for a Jnat at low grits, every expert I spoke to and every web reference I could find recommended synths until at least AOTO. For me, using razors, that translated to "Synthetic bevel setter". I'm sure there are divergent opinions, but I couldn't find any. So no, I have no experience with Japanese bevel setters. I haven't found many people who do, despite there being lots of people with experience with Japanese stones at higher grits. That may not be enough for you, but for me it's plenty telling.

I mostly agree with Ian here, but that doesn't mean I'll stop looking.

The Iyo has a chance. The fact that it dishes for woodworkers shouldn't necessarily bother us because we don't use the pressure they do.

Originally Posted by IanS

Holli;
The three things that I find to be of concern for a bevel setting stone are that it's level, consistent, and fast.

Diamond plates have three major advantages which happen to be that they are always level, are always perfectly consistent, and are much faster than any similar grit stone (ridiculously faster according to DMT)

Absolutely correct except for one small flaw, DMT's can be rather harsh on razor edges...

People buy them exactly for the reasons you posted and they do work, OK, especially if the have been broken in well, and you use a drop of soap, and the razor is not chippy, and the razor is not a full/extra hollow grind, and you don't use too much pressure (even one lap), see where the downsides start adding up???... I use them,(for restoration) and many others do too, but you have to take the cutting speed, with a large grain of salt also...They can be almost to much of a good thing...

Originally Posted by gugi

Then there's the question about buying rocks just because they seem inexpensive. There are only a handful of sellers of japanese hones who have the expertise and can ensure the hone is suitable for a razor and won't be damaging the edge. If you're not buying from one of them you're taking a fairly big gamble, especially with japanese stones which typically have all kinds of impurities.

EXCELLENT POINTS

I don't use dmt's anymore. I used too before and as Glenn mentioned above so many and's in dmt use.
i would not recommend dmt to anyone and mainly if you accidentally make 1 stroke with pressure it will scratch the blade.
next bad is they do worn out sooner or later you will realize they are way slower then when you start using them.
I do understand they 1200 and 8000 will leave great straight edge . Even after 8000 dmt you cannot get a good shave.
hope this helps

One other problem, at least in my experience, is that dmt offer absolutely no feedback. The closest thing I have come to in finding a natural bevel setter is funny enough a binsui white stone or an amakusa white they are both at around 1k and frankly are in my opinion far inferior to a naniwa, gs or any other synthetic 1k.
I would say go with a gs or naniwa, the naniwa offers awesome feedback almost like it has training weels and the gs is just really convenient and offers decent feedback, overall I would go with naniwa but thats just me.

I've broken in three. It's not particularly difficult. The pamphlet they send with them tells you to rub an old tool for a few passes and you're golden... that's how it went for me. I'm not sure what constitutes breaking in well though.

As for the razor not being chippy... I use my 220 to remove chips. Is there some problem with trying to bevel with the 1200 without removing chips first (other than the chips remaining since the 1200 doesn't remove material fast enough to smooth them out without hours of work)? I check the edge under 100x every few minutes (to minimize material lost) and haven't noticed any chips ever deepening or anything of that nature.

What's the problem with extra hollows? Some of my best shavers are EH's I've repaired and beveled on my DMT's. Hell, I've only been impressed with their performance on EH compared to other razors. I do a handful of passes, inspect the edge and have a "holy crap, I'm done already" moment almost every time. I've been able to undo years of abuse in a couple minutes with pressure applied to the right points on an extra hollow. I'd certainly agree that if you applied pressure to the wrong points you could DO years worth of damage to a razor as well, but the DMT is a tool, if it's faster when used right, it's going to be faster when used wrong too.

Mem:
My continuous 220 gives no feedback, but my F/EF both give excellent feedback (maybe because they're interrupted, I've just assumed it was that the 220 was too low a grit).

I have never tried the interrupted ones so I can't comment, but the continuous surface ones are like running a piece of metal over slick glass. Reminds me of teflon for some reason.

Yeah... that's about how the 220 is. The interrupted are way different. I could tell you ~ how many passes I've given a razor on my F/EF by the SOUND it makes during the stroke. It's that good.


Edit:
I should note that the 220 has SOME feedback the first couple passes after a good brushing (I actually used a synthetic horsehair brush to keep it clean when I first got it and was actually bothering to try and keep feedback on it). The problem really is that as soon as it starts clogging it does kind of hydroplane whatever you're working on... still chews though, so I learned to live with it. Hence the checking on the Chips with a scope. :P