Thread: Jnat stamp questions

Why did/do the miners digging for jnats stamp the stones on the working face and not on an un-used surface? What if someone transfered the stamps to the side, would they still be valid or just considered no better than counterfeit, even with photographic proof? The couple cheap ebay jnats I have I didnt worry about losing the stamps, too much, but when I start to pay for quality stones especially rare old stock stones I imagine I will not want to lose the stamps if I think I will ever want to sale them later. I was thinking of maybe getting them laser etched onto a side, filled with dark epoxy or ink and covered with laquer. They would then last the life of the stone, I could also use the whole face while honing. It seems that as of now there are plenty of stones with stamps but lets say a hundred years down the road when our stone collections are being sold with our estates, how are buyers going to know what strata out of which mine in which era the stones came to be(as I understand it new stamps are already deficient in this regard). Any thoughts?

What would 'forged' new side stamps add to photos of the hones in their original state?

Moreover, the virtue of a hone is not in its provenance but in its performance. Stamps and papers are only a very poor indication of that*. And to state it a bit boldly: who needs them to appraise a good hone, isn't worth one.

If the stamps have been lapped off, the hone is used. The one who used it should be able to comment on its behaviour. If this person is trustworthy, that suffices. If he isn't, stamps aren't much use either: there are a lot of fakes around.


* in Japanese hones that is. Traditionally there is more emphasis on individual qualities and characteristics than on standardization and replicability. Prospective buyers used to try out hones individually and only then decide which to buy. The situation is different for some (but not all) Western hones. One dark blue Escher is pretty much the same as another and who buys a Burton pierre à rasoir qualité I AAA knows exactly what he gets.

Jason
You asked,

"Why did/do the miners digging for jnats stamp the stones on the working face and not on an un-used surface?

Here we have come to another point in dealing with Japanese natural stones where we find that the culture and the product do not cross the oceans hand in hand. Oldengaerde was on to part of it with,

Moreover, the virtue of a hone is not in its provenance but in its performance. Stamps and papers are only a very poor indication of that*. And to state it a bit boldly: (He that) who needs them (stamps) to appraise a good hone, isn't worth (worthy of having) one.

In Japan the stamps are mostly just advertising, very few mines pre-1950 attached the name of the mine itself on the stone, it was mostly the stones wholesalers who stamped them, and then again it was mostly fictitious names. Even the most famous mine of all the Nakayama mine did not stamp their stones NAKAYAMA MINE, which would have been in poor taste. Things did change slightly after the war from outside influence but not much. The stone culture we are all plugging into here on this forum happened along the same time as the general popular use of straight razors, pre 1950, pre-safety razor. This was the era when the most stones were mined and marketed.

Two things come into play here, work ethitic and religion.

Men in traditional trades pre-1950's in Japan would usually rather work than be at home taking out the garbage. Men worked 6 1/2 days a week in the trades and usually from 7AM to 6PM. If you were a carpenter (95% of the stones mined and sold went to this trade) you sharpened heavily in the evening and some before work began for the day. Stones were used with the edge in mind, not the stones longivity. When a stone was bought new, stamp or no stamp it was tested out first and the owner knew that he would be back for another at some point where this one wore down and out. Any thought of the ink stamps was just a passing glance.

Because Japan is Buddhist/Shinto culture workers are always very keen on maintaining good graces with the gods. All groundbreaking projects begin with a Shinto ceremony and the finished project end with one too. In Buddhism, tools are an extension of the users spirit, the karma acquired within a tools spirit is that of the user and the karma must be maintained and preserved. A mans tools were not sold to another after he began to use them, they were either used up or set aside. When a man died his wife put the tools away out of sight, if a tool needed to be used by a family member it was but used tools were not sold to third parties for fear the karma would be altered therefore altering the spirit of the first user.

Ink stamps were placed on the top surface of the stone and were meant to be tempoary because it was assumed that the stone would be used up into nothingness, or if it was not used up, the idea of selling it was not a consideration.
Alx

I'm not japanese so I can't speak to the accuracy of that but the stamps on mine seems water soluble, and I would've thought if they were meant to be kept, they would've used something at least more permanent than easily comes of with water and a little rubbing.

Old School- I think you were right I think they might've come of as I was honing not just with water thank you for correcting me. I forgot.

All the japanese naturals I have seen (only a dozen or so, admittedly) have hugely irregular surfaces on the back - seems logical to mark the flat side.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

All the japanese naturals I have seen (only a dozen or so, admittedly) have hugely irregular surfaces on the back - seems logical to mark the flat side.

Regards,
Neil

from what I read the skin in the back is very valuable feature. One with enough experience, can tell where the stone is mined from based only on the skin color. Probably a reason not to flatten the back of the stone.
I know So has flattened stones on both sides but they are in his personal collection and not for sale.

QUOTE=OLD_SCHOOL;526573]
I sell stamped hones so that people don't just have to take my word they are what I say they are. I've seen online places selling chunks of broken rock with no honing surface, for a small fortune, claiming that they were such and such Japanese natural hone, and the shops were operated by non Japanese persons. If I were going to buy one of those without being able to test it first, and no chance of returning it, I'd like some sort of assurance it is what the seller says it is, and that's where stamps come in.

This is what I was trying to get at, you sell me a stone that you can vouch is a good stone and it has the stamps that say special or razor or maruka or best quality or whatever then I use the stone and remove the stamps. Now if I sold it on this forum I could say I bought this stone from OS and it was listed as a such and such stone and puts a great edge on a razor, but when I die, how will the value of the stone be kept, I realize the true value is in using the stone, but we are getting charged more for certain stamps and imo its a shame that value is going to be lost. Just imagine the cheap stones on ebay in a hundred years. Something like, "I found this stone in my grandpas shop I have no idea what it is, so I am offering it at no reserve and a low starting price" or we could change that to, "I found a stone in my grandpas shop, it says it is (insert mine, strata, quality here) on the side so I am offering it at such and such price". The buyer would have to beware, as they are now with forged stamps or missing stamps, but it would be a little more difficult for the sellers to give away a thousand dollar stone(or more) for a opening bid of 99 cents.

Stamps nowadays are a bit of a moot point, because there are forgeries out there, and unless you are experienced and can tell the difference, you may end up buying one of those forgeries. Said forged stamps are made to try pass hones off as being from the Nakayama quarry, because they are one of the most high priced hones in Japan. There are currently only two reputable online vendors who sell genuine Nakayama mined hones internationally.

A moot point? On your website a hone with no stamps is about half price of a stone with stamps. I bought a good shobu pale purple stone with no stamps for the same price I paid for a stone full of toxic inclusions that had stamps, so I understand what you are saying about stamps not mattering much, but it seems alot of the price of certain stones are because of what the stamps say. Does a 2400 dollar stone really finish that much better than a 400 dollar stone, or is there value in a stone being from a certain mine(rarity) on top of the value seen in its usage.

You don't really need to keep stamps unless you plan to resell your hone. If you bought a stamped hone from a reputable seller, and you know it is quality, for what other purpose would the stamp serve? If it's to "prove" to your friends that it is what you say it is, then perhaps you need new friends?

I could care less about proving anything to any one, I do care about the loss of value though. I work too hard for my money to lose a signifigant amount just because some ink disappeared. As I stated above I am not so concerned with me losing as I doubt I will ever sale one, but eventually someone else is going to be selling them down the road and I was just trying to think of a way to keep some value in the stone or atleast make it easier on them to figure out what it is. Maybe instead of transfering the original stamps how about putting a grit estimate and a razor, meaning that it has been used on razors, and the mine it came from or the strata. I understand they wouldnt mean much but they might be helpfull. Photos can be altered, stamps can be forged, opinions can be shewed so I cant see how relying on those would be any better than us making our own way of identifying a stone, of course it wouldnt automatically be any better either but I would think it would be at least a little useful. Possibly one or two of the more experienced Jnat users could charge to use the stone and give an assesment in a certain stamp on a non-working face and in the future instead of looking for a maruka stamp they could look for an OS or Alx stamp, if the original stamps dont really tell much, maybe the new stamp could tell us everything we needed to know about said stone, just a thought.

@Khaos, the stamps are far from water soluble, they do wear off in time from long term use, but not from a little water and rubbing.

The last 330mate stone I bought only took water and a little rubbing to disappear. It didnt even have to wait until its first lapping. I wasnt too worried about that stone though since his stamps dont mean much more than forged stamps anyway from some of the posts I have read and I doubt it will ever become a razor hone because of the inclusions.

Thanks for all the help to all who have posted so far and in advance to those posting in the future.

-Jason