Thread: Escher or Thuringian?

I would return it because of the 1" width. Not that you can't get use out of a narrow hone and for some applications it is desirable but nevertheless, I would send it back. Keep your eye out for a labeled Escher and go for the right one when it comes up. You may end up paying more or you may get lucky. My guess is you'll be second guessing yourself as long as you have that stone if you keep it. Just IMHO.

I can't in good faith recommend that you return it, because in my opinion the seller – notwithstanding his bad behavior – wasn't actually factually wrong here. Opinions will vary, but mine is that your Thuringian is an Escher. I'm attaching a picture of the label for a bona fide E & Co. dark blue thuringian. The label text is identical to yours, and when you use it to fill in the missing words from yours, you'll see that yours reads "The Genuine Water Hone with this trade mark is well known throughout the world" etc., exactly like the Escher brand one.

People demand different levels of "proof" that they've got a "real" Escher. Perhaps my standard of proof is lenient because I don't really care. But really, I don't see how a different company could get away with using exactly the same text as E. & Co., word for word, down to and including the self-reference to "this trade mark."

Note that though I think the seller was technically right, it was by a stroke of luck and not by any knowledge or care taken on his part; and I would have been more circumspect if I were listing this hone myself. I would have said "No brand name indicated, but label type and phrasing of company statement are consistent with that of E. & Co. hones," or something along those lines.

Not sure if the text is visible on these photographs, but I never considered them originating from Escher. To me if a company's name is not present that means there is no proof it came from that company.
A logo or company name is trademarked and cannot be used frivolously, and for some reason I doubt that a paragraph of text is covered by the same protection.
Then of course if we go nitpicking how do one know that a particular hone belongs to a particular box? Some of the ones I've had the hones were detached from the box, and even the ones that were still glued, I don't have any proof that that's the original glue.
The ones with labels on the stones are much more reliable as lifting a label off the stone looks like it'll be really hard. But we've seen auctions where the label was taped with a scotch tape to the stone and looked like it may even be a photocopy...

I'm just happy with my hones and actually the 1.5"x7" one that I've kept is not Escher, but some other company. I just think it's a cooler hone than the eschers.

You guys are great; I really appreciate it.

Actually I was just speaking with Bob Keyes today on the phone about all this, and he was telling me about how he just goes from 1k to 4k to 8k to leather strop. Nothing in between 8k and leather -- no pastes, no paddles, no finishing stones, and he gets the blades crazy sharp when he hones. So maybe the entire "finishing hone" thing is a waste of money, regardless of what hone you use?! Who knows.

Anyway, I'll try the hone out tonight and see if it's a keeper. Ivan, of course you're correct, because without even an E&Co. or some other kind of label stuck somewhere, you're never going to be in a position to claim this is an Escher (unlike my seller, that is!). Personally, I'd even be happy to live with that if it turns out that it's a great hone AND that I didn't completely get ripped off on the original price, as I'm still not really clear about whether the hone is worth the money I paid ($167) or only about half that amount (according to some, the price of a decent vintage Thuringian). But as Jimmy suggests, sometimes these questions are not given to firm or concrete answers.

Anyway, much obliged to all of you for the help, and again I am in your debt. --Jeff

I have a couple of the narrow vintage Thuringian and I think they are great for smiling blades. I have honed 8/8 W&B wedges with big smiles on one.

Jeff, I think you got a great hone, however you did not get an Escher.

You bet, you can hone a 12/8 razor on a 1/2 inch wide stone if you want to, but for some reason, the little bit wider stones seem to make the task so much easier and consistent, especially for guys learning to hone.

The older Thuringen stones if you can find them are very nice finishing stones.

Have fun,

Lynn

Lynn, Kees and others,

Thank you again for all of the help with this. I'm going to try to use the hone a little and see if I can make it work despite my lack of skills. (My mentor Bob Keyes thinks I'm actually dulling every razor that I "hone" -- which is depressing!)

Anyway, the narrow size is intimidating, but it seems like just about all of these old hones are either 1 or 1.5 inches OR they cost over $300 -- a good incentive to learn how to use a narrow hone.

So thanks again for the help with the identification, and I hope to repay all of the kindness shown here when I get a little closer to your level of knowledge! --Jeff

Originally Posted by JeffE

You guys are great; I really appreciate it.

Actually I was just speaking with Bob Keyes today on the phone about all this, and he was telling me about how he just goes from 1k to 4k to 8k to leather strop. Nothing in between 8k and leather -- no pastes, no paddles, no finishing stones, and he gets the blades crazy sharp when he hones. So maybe the entire "finishing hone" thing is a waste of money, regardless of what hone you use?! Who knows.

Anyway, I'll try the hone out tonight and see if it's a keeper. Ivan, of course you're correct, because without even an E&Co. or some other kind of label stuck somewhere, you're never going to be in a position to claim this is an Escher (unlike my seller, that is!). Personally, I'd even be happy to live with that if it turns out that it's a great hone AND that I didn't completely get ripped off on the original price, as I'm still not really clear about whether the hone is worth the money I paid ($167) or only about half that amount (according to some, the price of a decent vintage Thuringian). But as Jimmy suggests, sometimes these questions are not given to firm or concrete answers.

Anyway, much obliged to all of you for the help, and again I am in your debt. --Jeff

Thats strange bob keyes as always told me he finishes on 12k kitiyama. And he does use .5 and 0.25 paste. he recently told me he stopped using paste as he was getting complaints of harshness. I havehad several blades from bob and they are first class restores.

Maybe I misunderstood him! I agree that Bob does some of the best work around, and I've used him for all of my honing. When I asked him about my chromium oxide/balsa strop, he started telling me about how that just ends up dulling the edges over time and that he doesn't use anything like that. I then asked him what he uses after his 8k stone, and he said, "nothing -- just stropping." Anyway, I can't seem to get anything approaching a decent edge without some kind of finishing stone, so maybe the difference is in the skill of the person doing the sharpening.

Originally Posted by JeffE

Maybe I misunderstood him! I agree that Bob does some of the best work around, and I've used him for all of my honing. When I asked him about my chromium oxide/balsa strop, he started telling me about how that just ends up dulling the edges over time and that he doesn't use anything like that. I then asked him what he uses after his 8k stone, and he said, "nothing -- just stropping." Anyway, I can't seem to get anything approaching a decent edge without some kind of finishing stone, so maybe the difference is in the skill of the person doing the sharpening.

Back in the early days of SRP, when it was still the yahoo group, from what I understand, the norton 8k was the finishing stone. When I was beginning to learn to hone , still learning, Randy told me to test shave off of the 8k before moving up. If it ain't shaving good off the 8k higher grit honing is like putting choclate frosting on dog doo ..... if you'll pardon the analogy.