Thread: finishing with japanese naturals - what's your way?

Hey guys, I've just recently entered the world of japanese naturals - starting with a nakayama suita (with lots of nashiji) and I'm also going to be trying out a nakayama namito/tomae.

So, my main question is about exactly what you guys do at the end. How many laps do you do on your j-nat finishers? Do you do a progression from thick slurry, light slurry, to clear water? And if so, how many laps on each? I also know that the abrasive particles (on some? all?) can get ground down finer as you hoen, though I don't quite know how to account for that in my sequence/progression.

And then what do you do after the final clear-water polishing stage? Do you use a smoother, like CrOx or CeOx? (And if so how many laps?) And then what stropping do you do? Standard fabric and leather 25-50+ laps each? One expert advised me *not* to strop after finishing with a good j-nat, because it "erases the stone's signature" - he actually advised taking some (dry) slurry from the stone and "stropping" on your hand.

Also, while I know that the ideal would be to achieve the desired sharpness without resorting to any sharpening pastes, I'm wondering if anyone has had any success working any diamond pastes into a sequence with any good j-nat finishers. I saw on a couple of threads that you can take something like CrOx or CeOx and put it on the hone (presumably with water, not oil) - but I couldn't find any details on exactly how that works and people's experiences with it.

At the risk of overloading with questions, I'm also curious of what people are "jumping" from before their toishi - currently I'm moving to my suita (with slurry) from a BBW and coticule progressively-thinning=slurry progression, which seems to be working well.

Cheers all.

I never use slurry on a finisher. Numbers will vary by stone, so you can't really get advice on that. The "jump" will also depend on your specific stone. You really have to play with it to figure this stuff out.

I have an Asagi - I use just water and do 50 laps max after my Naniwa 8k.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I have an Asagi - I use just water and do 50 laps max after my Naniwa 8k.

+1 what holli4 said, except I use a Coticule instead of of a Naniwa 8K.

I have had and sold a few J-nats and presently have two. For my finishing hone (an Ohira Suita with lots of renge in it), I wet the surface and work up a slurry with my DMT 1200. I may or may not add a little bit of water depending on how much remains on the hone.

I start honing with about five circles down the hone for about five laps. I then do as many back and forth laps as it takes until the slurry goes pasty and nearly dry. Some of the hone will be dry at this point.

I then add water, as much as there was at the start, and progressively hone the slurry off of the hone, and add water as necessary. It takes about 15 laps to get to clear water where next to no slurry is left on the hone or razor.

I do about 20 laps on clean water. Strop and shave. No cro ox.

Of all of the stones I have had the one finisher that I still own is the best I have found after sampling 7 other j-nat finishers. I love it and no matter the razor or its grind, the edge after this method is second to none.


The above progression is usually preceded by one of three hones; a Chosera #5000, a Coticule, or a Mikawa Stripe.

Thanks guys, but a few folllow-upS:
Holli: do you strop or smooth (CrOx) after, and if so what materials and how much? And why do you say you never use slurry on a finisher? (One expert told me, intriguingu, that with softer stones a slurry will decrease effective grit, but with the hardest stones - like an Asagi - a slurry can actually *incnrease* the effective grit, perhaps 2K-3K.)
Zeth: well as you know I was blown away by that Helje you honed and sent me. At some opint I'll get the confidence up to rehone it myself, and find out what aspects of the edge are the razor and what aspects are the honing - I'm convinced it's some of both. (I've asked around and gotten totally split answers, some say definitely the razor/steel, some say definitely the honing..heh.)
Anyways, let me ask you this: when you use the slurry, do you stop before the edge so as to keep the slurry on the stone? From your description it sounds like maybe you don't, or perhaps you only do on the first stage?

I also wonder: are you guys able to get the edge as sharp as, say, a .25micron diamond paste (to my mind about as sharp as a razor can get)? I know that the j-nat edge is much smoother and a different beast, but I'm just wondering how *sharp* one can really get it.

Thanks again .

Originally Posted by Mijbil

Zeth: well as you know I was blown away by that Helje you honed and sent me. At some opint I'll get the confidence up to rehone it myself, and find out what aspects of the edge are the razor and what aspects are the honing - I'm convinced it's some of both. (I've asked around and gotten totally split answers, some say definitely the razor/steel, some say definitely the honing..heh.)
Anyways, let me ask you this: when you use the slurry, do you stop before the edge so as to keep the slurry on the stone? From your description it sounds like maybe you don't, or perhaps you only do on the first stage?

For me I have no trouble controlling the slurry. So if I want it there, I do a certain kind of stroke to keep it topside. It is hard to explain and probably comes from practice.


As for the edge on that Heljestrand, I am also going to joing the 'its both the steel and honing' bandwagon. Swedish steel is excellent and so is my hone.

There are others far more educated than I am about Japanese naturals, but I sometimes use slurry and sometimes I don't. From what I understand, there are are nagura stones that are better suited for finishing slurry and others that are better for working through a "progression" where you can use it similarly to a coticule effectively.

Any time I want to use slurry, I use a diamond plate to raise the slurry from the stone (not trusting my unknown quality of my nagura). The weird thing is that both methodologies has gotten very positive feedback... Maybe slurry is completely unnecessary for a finisher? I don't know for sure... I spend entirely too much time with a coticule

Originally Posted by ZethLent

For me I have no trouble controlling the slurry. So if I want it there, I do a certain kind of stroke to keep it topside. It is hard to explain and probably comes from practice.

Well, sure - but am I right that in the first stage you keep the slurry on, but from stage 2 (when you add water) on you dont take "measures" to keep it on the stone?

Helje - yeah, seems were in agreement. I'm gathering up some other great Swedes, and hones, and on the warpath to figure it all out precisely. I'll let you know where I end up.

I keep the slurry on at all times. On Asagi it takes a lot of skill to finish with no slurry and not have scratches on the bevel.
My Asagi is slow so I do 40 circles up and down , then finish with x-stroke usually 30 laps, to get the typical sandblasted finish on the whole bevel. Next step for me is CrO if needed, and sometimes also a 0.25 micron diamond spray.

Originally Posted by Mijbil

Well, sure - but am I right that in the first stage you keep the slurry on, but from stage 2 (when you add water) on you dont take "measures" to keep it on the stone?

Yes, I water down the hone, and with ever stroke I make sure I am pushing some water and slurry off the side of the hone. Also every 5 laps or so I touch the razor to a towel to drain off the water and slurry trapped there (I actually touch the top of the tip of the razor to a towel, so the edge is in the air, to do this). I may also rinse the razor under running water.



My finisher is also much too slow to hone without a slurry. Even with all of the renge in it. But for it's level of finish I can't complain.