How else would you expect someone to interpret that?
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I meant the other way round! Go from a Nani 12K to an Escher as opposed to an 8K to an Escher.
I thought you meant the edge would not be as good using an 8K to Escher, rather than your take on wasting the Escher!
Jimmy, does it actually make a difference 8K to Escher or 12K to Escher, or is it the same end result?
No problem Sham, glad to hear your experience - Ive been polishing a mere 2 years, honing for less than 1 year.
Out of interest what do you use before the Escher?
Gee I don't know. Maybe, like Sham says, coming off the 12k rather than the 8k would require less strokes for the optimum result ? I don't worry about wasting the stone. I have 3/4" thick and 7/8" thick that I like to use (Eschers) ..... I'm 61 years old. I don't think I will wear them out. :) IOW, I'll be gone before they will.
At the moment this is my last 2 stones
Japanese stone then Escher.
Now Sick people same as me never use same progression forever.
what happens is this.
i hone razors and find ideal progression then i lost interest i move different stones and try to find ideal progression again.
it is because of our HAD. AT least how i think.
Long time ago i was using Norton,1k, Japanese 3k, then brown natural stone then Norton 8k , shapton 16k ,ecsher.
Progression is constantly changes.
I like to use Many stones less strokes.
This is my personal preferences.gl
sham i have still have to test the two you did for me .i will test them by the week end and post. as i said i shaved a customer with one of the razors and the razor shaved no problem, i have to try so i can feel for my self. i will post the differance between a good coti edge and your escher edge.
the other thing i wanted to mention. Sham you use escher with milky slurry only? and this is how you finish with slurry edge and no water then plain leather.
this is the thing i have to figure out i tryed slurry finished edge and it did'nt seem as smooth and seemed to slighly dull the edge for me.
Fair enough: a Coti is a natural stone, and therefor each bout is different from every other. Mine, according to Steve at Invisible Edge (who I trust) is a "top grade" bout, "not standard." But until my honing skills improve to the point that my ability exceeds the equipment, it's unlikely that I'll know if this is "the right Coticule." My sense is that the Coti is all I'll ever need.
Today, in fact, I took a vintage razor from dull to shave for the first time. It took a couple of hours and I was slow and careful, watching Bart's YouTube videos while I did it. I've tried over the past couple of weeks to hone my blades, and while I'm sure that I improved them, today's hone was the best one to date. So: I think I've got a good bout. Other, more experienced honers may disagree, but without my bout to try out, they can't possibly know. And equally important, until my skills improve, I'll never know either.
But I like the idea that I can use a single hone for all my razor needs. I'd even like to sharpen my Shun kitchen knives with it.
Congrats on your success with the coticule. I would draw the line at honing knives on it. You could certainly do it and do it successfully but they will wear the soft coticule much faster than a straight razor. Better to reserve the coti for the razors and get something a bit harder for kitchen knives. IMHO.
The 220/1000 Norton, perhaps? My girlfriend, who is not permitted near my Shuns ("Don't even look at them!") has a mangled set of generic knives that has seen all sorts of unthinkable abuse and would clearly destroy my Coti. My sense is that the 220 would set a new bevel and the 1000 would sharpen it right up.
Do you have an opinion on the matter?
I'm not very knowledgeable on kitchen cutlery but from what little I've read 1k would be finer than many guys go on their kitchen knives. Somewhere between 325 and 600 is about tops IIRC. Not that you couldn't go as high as 1k but I don't think a lot of guys do unless it is the sushi guys. That is my impression anyhow. I think the 220 would be fine.
Could be that no one called you on it :shrug:
Words mean things, and yours meant that the people who make that observation are smart. Those who disagree with your ratio that 2 out of however many you've tried are "good" coticules get lumped into the group that don't "accept" that there are bad coticules. By inference, they must not be smart. Is that wrong?
Maybe I'm a little hypersensitive to your anti-coticule ramblings, but I am definitely weary of reading them. :boohoo:
i 've had a bout of steve and there well worth the money and as good as you' will get.
r you from uk?
I live there now. I moved here in September for Grad School. LOTS of great antique Sheffield blades around here. I've picked up several for £6 (including a NOS Puma 95) and have started restoring them with a new Dremel and Coti. Who knew that pinning was such a huge PITA to do well? I can't even find a good source for fasteners and rods and washers and the like.
This is the Problem you have . You think i am anti-coticule.
that is your understanding.
In reality i say truth about coticule or any other stones if i have tested or testing etc.
some people will accept that some wont. Some people have enough experience and enough coticules knows what i am saying.
Some don't.
if person had 1 good coticule and that stone puts nice edge to the stone that person will think this is the best stone out there available.
Nothing wrong with this person's opinion. he says what experienced.
Now I have my own opinion and i don't think i have to change it because
richmondesi doesn't like my opinion?
I would ask why some of you guys don't want to accept other people's opinions?
what issues do you have with it?
have fun
Im not anti coticule either, however I would not recommend it as a stone to start out with to someone learning to hone. Firstly a good sized one is quite expensive, more than a 4K/8K or a Nani 3/8K.
Second, while I have tried and tested Bart's methods, I think using coticules for bevel work and anything prior to polishing is like buying an expensive car that you have to push. Really. Coticules have their attributes and I admit are extremely versatile, but many dislike their final finish. Some members in this thread are happy with their shaves off a coti. Fair play, I respect that.
For those that want something more, a coti is pretty useless. You can bevel set with a 1k, refine on a 4/8 and finish on an Escher/Thurry/Jnat. Some large cotis can not much less than the cost of all these combined. And before even getting the finisher, a 1k and 4/8 is more than adequate, in fact recommeded to learn on prior to finishing with anything higher.
I started with a bout and it got me nowhere. I didn't know about SRP at the time and my initial failiures with the coti made me fear honing.
My point is they are expensive and far harder to use and without an experience honer at hand it is hard to learn to use cotis even with good advice, because the advice does not know the properties of the coti.
Sorry to go of on one.
Edit: You may like the idea of a single hone for all your needs, but it can not accomodate all your needs without you driving yourself mad for days trying to remove chips. You may one day come across a razor that needs some real edge correction, or a heavy wedge. You'll wish you had a lapping plate as the coti simply is not up to such a challenge.
Similarly one day you may want a better edge and buy a finisher that gives you better results. You may also buy a quicker synthetic hone as you're getting sick of spending hours setting bevels on your coti. Then you'll end up thinking why do I need this...?
i honed a ti yesterday with coti dilucot. i did as sham recomends to use escher with slurry only (milky) i did 60 laps light as possible and then plain leather only for stropping.
the hht was not quite as good of the escher as it was of coticule. the shave this morning was very smooth and i was realy happy with the shave it was as smooth as you can get. Big improvemant this time. I'm just wondering if because my hone had never been used it may of just needed a good couple of lappings as i have done since i have had the stone. I will now try on some more razors . This was my best edge i have got of escher and the shave of slurry alone was faultless. now i'm getting some where i hope i can repeat this.
Excellent points and a view I subscribe to. Granted, you can use a coti for most honing steps, but you can also use a teaspoon for digging-over the garden and do away with the need to buy a shovel... I'd use a shovel every time!
Also, like a few others here have pointed out whose opinions are valued, I have yet to find a coti whose edge can't be improved on by a good thuringian. Don't take that as coti-bashing, because it isn't, its just my personal experience with a number of hones.
Regards,
Neil
Exactly. The coti is an incredible stone, and I have seen some true beauties, my favourites being natural combos with the black manganese dots and lines.
They are truly awesome stones and I can see the attraction to them.
But I can not stress enough to learners that this is the stone to avoid (IMHO IMHO IMHO etc, no one have a bash at me for this etc) as an initial choice.
The way I find them to be marketed, or more accurately the positive feedback by some experienced coti users MAY and I am sure HAS led some newbies to believe that this is all they will ever need. This couldn't be further from the truth. Even Bart uses a DMT. The more you hone, the more you wana get through the early steps more rapidly, ie. restore the edge quickly so you can get to polish. Sham says less strokes on more hones for example and I dont wish to waste time either. Bottom line is I dont know of one experienced member here who has one hone and nothing else - whether it be due to HAD or need for work horses.
I have seen posts (eg. 'Leos daddy learns to hone') whereby 'leo' was having trouble with a coti. I personally believe had he gone for a full set of nortons at a far cheaper price than that large combo (which he is now surprisingly selling) he would have had far more success and learned to hone far more quickly. But he had gone for a coti, quite possibly as he thought it was an indefinite solution to all the honing he would ever encounter.
Not only that, but for advice being given by meisters finds it hard to differentiate whether it is the hone or the user, whereas with a synthetic it is far more fool proof.
To me using an Escher/Thuringian after a Coticle is a natural progression, pardon the pun.
As a newbie honer, and the owner of a new Coticule, and a firm believer in the notion that a single Coti will be all I ever need (but not necessarily desire), I feel compelled to take a view and offer an opinion.
Understanding my position will benefit from a basic understanding of my shaving experience. I'm in my mid-40's and have been shaving with straights for a few years. I wear a beard, and am a generally disheveled grad student, so I shave a couple times a week, and only on my neck under my beard. Until the past month, I've used the same three razors, purchased new from Classic Shaving, not "honed and shave-ready by a honemeister." Until recently, I've used the same paddle strop, with Dovo Red Paste on one side, and untreated leather on the other. Eventually I noticed that my razors have dulled over the years, so I read SRP (and others), watched YouTube, and applied my own common sense and ability to separate opinion from fact to a decision to start honing my own razors.
Even a simple cost-benefit analysis of a hone purchase decision doesn't permit the acquisition of multiple stones to care for three razors. In fact, it barely allows for the purchase of a hone at all, so it became important to buy a single, high-quality versatile hone that would never need replacing. I have no wish to buy a starter stone and then deal with the cost of replacing it. Someone who's opinion I respect once told me get the right tool for the right job first, and then learn how to use it properly. So I bought a Coti, a good one from Steve at Invisible Edge (who's opinion I also respect.) It should serve me very well, as it has many others for a hundred years.
Perhaps it's appropriate to say that I now live in England (and desperately miss the weather in Colorado), and am confronted with antique dealers that seem to have endless supplies of old Sheffield razors. I've picked up several, and am learning to polish and restore them. I'm a rookie, heavily armed with a Coti, a Dremel, and the firm belief that I can accomplish a great deal with these two simple tools. It's also important to note that I've now spent more on razor care (strops, hone, Dremel, etc...) then I have on razors, a balance that I find borders on some sort of Disorder. So I have no desire to buy more hones, only more razors.
Given the time-honored tradition of using a Coti, coupled with its incredible versitilty and ability to produce fine edges, the decision to choose it as a single stone seems reasonable to me. Metal can be ground and polished forever, so mistakes are correctable as I learn to hone. Once I'm an expert on my Coti, it's possible that I may desire an additional finishing stone, but the key word here is "desire," not "need." According to everything I've read, when controlling for individual opinions, the Coti is all I'll ever need.
Manual Castells, the esteemed communications scholar at Oxford and USC, speaks of Networked Power, the condition under which an opinion is amplified in importance beyond, perhaps, what it should be when inserted into the network. No one's opinion is correct, no matter how loud or prominent it appears. It seems like we are all falling victim to this condition.
That's just my opinion.
Fair enough. I personally think you would have been better off with a 4/8 Norton, but if the bout is working for you thats excellent news.
Had you only wanted to maintain 3 razors, a barber hone may have been even more cost effective.
Well put Mark. For most people on SRP your approach, or one similar is all that is needed. Many of the people posting to this thread hone professional or at least hone many razors. It is at that point that they balance cost with time and search for a hone that produces a reliable edge and fine finish time and again. While I have a few more razors than needed I hone for myself and occasionally for others. I like a minimal approach to my hones, at least at first. I desire more hones but the desire is kept in check with the substantial savings in finding hones at local antique shops and flea markets as to paying 'retail' or highest bid. It is very easy to look at the honemisters and say that if they are using hone x it must be what I need or want while missing the value added part of the equation.
They are indeed time honored and that accounts for some of what attracts me to them. If you work with the stone long enough you'll get to know it and if the results are satisfactory you may stay with the coticule by itself. Nothing at all wrong with that. If, OTOH, you're in one of those antique stores and you run across a Charnley Forrest or an Escher grab it. More arrows in the quiver keeps the sport interesting. :)
For an academic I find it comical that you have a stone you've just bought, yet what you think of it is based on others' opinions and not your own experience.
And you are very fickle to change it so easily.
Why not really use the stone before you post, rather than regurgitating a c0cktail of opinions which you believe. That isn't helpful to anyone.
I appreciate your posts and wanting to learn, but SRP isn't about lecturing false opinions, its about educating and sharing via discussions of real experiences to help each other out in a common hobby.
Brief viewpoint from a new honer:
I recently completed my first 'legitimate' honing (bevel creation to 'better-than-good-quality' finish). I did not have a 1K, and so I used the natural coticle that I came across recently. No, it wasn't easy - and yes, I made many steps backwards, but in the end, I did develop a HUGE appreciation for the dynamics of this stone, and I did wind up with a great shave. In fairness, I did not finish on the coti, but the point is, irrespective of what I chose to use to finish, the experience with the coti was really fulfilling.
For me, the synthetics I tried briefly did not provide the same enjoyment - in part because I work with rocks a lot, but also because I personally enjoy the journey as much as the destination. Or, I appreciate becoming the archer rather than simply having some 'correct' bow as mentioned above.
But that's just me....
The more I read threads like this the more I am convinced that personal preference and time are the keys to enjoying your hones of preferences. It is obvious that their are camps in favor of certain stones that have worked for people although I am not sure that some of the folks that post about a particular stone have had the opportunity to try a lot of other stones and when someone is only dealing with a few razors and they are happy with the results they are getting from the only stone they have, I also am not sure that there is the need to experiment further.
Given enough time, I can get excellent shaves off a Norton 8K, Naniwa 10 or 12K, Shapton 16k, Coticule, Escher, Chinese 12K, Asagi, Ohzuku, Kiita, Charnley and on and on........ The interesting thing for me is that these results can almost always be made just a little better with some CrOx or .5 diamond or even Cerium.
I think it's fun to experiment with going from any of the finishing stones to another and see what happens. When we were in NC a couple years ago, we just kept doing some circles and 10X strokes from finisher to finisher and TPT testing the difference in feeling following each stone and they all had their own characteristics and surprisingly we didn't over hone a one of them.
As far as the one hone method is concerned, and again, given enough time, you can use any of the natural hones with varying thickness of slurry to obtain decent results from start to finish with a razor in reasonably good condition.
For me personally, I like the finish from the Escher better than the Coticule, but you can still get an excellent shave from either. I also like the Escher for finishing when I am doing multiple razors because for me, I get 9-10 out of 10 to hit with just water on the stone and 10X strokes. With the Coticule and just water, I get in the 6-7 range. With my Japanese naturals, I get in the 8-9 range. This consistency is important to me because of my need to hone many razors. I don't think it is as important for an individual just maintaining a couple razors. People can accomplish so many things using different processes and techniques and given the number of people in the sport, we should see new techniques for some time to come. I do still think of which stones are the easiest to teach someone on so that they can become successful quickly and then go from there on their individual journeys. No right answer here either, just my personal preferences.
The differences for those of us seeking the holy grail of edges is always subtle, but distinct. Many times the razor itself either in grind or make can alter these differences. At this point and no matter what camp you are in, I don't think there is a honemeister that is the holy grail of anything. We are all just experimenting and trying to produce great edges and none of us is perfect, yet. I would ask all of us to support each new stone and idea or technique that someone comes up with that works for them so that we can continue to learn more about this wonderful sport.
I am convinced that there is no best hone other than the one that works best for you.
Have fun,
Lynn
Gentleman, it is not unusual for people to have a strong opinion on which hone and/or honing method is the best. IME these opinions sometimes lead to strong feelings being expressed that can spiral out of control and lead to personal attacks. We don't want to see that so remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is a YMMV pursuit as in all things concerned with straight razor shaving. Let's remember that we are all among friends and discuss this in a manner respectful of each other's point of view even if we may personally disagree.
At ****tail parties, it's best to avoid discussions about religion, politics, or best finishing hones.
Me