Thread: A couple of JNat questions...

My understanding is that Kitta and Asagi refer to appearance, and not "grit". If that's the case case, then how can one refer to a Nakayama Asagi as being finer, or not, than a Kitta? Wouldn't that be similar to saying that a red Pontiac is faster than a blue Pontiac?

Also... Lynn made mention of doing one-stone honing on a few JNats. My understanding is that a Botan nagura has a "grit" of approximately 8k, and that the other naguras used in a finishing progression are finer. If that is the case, what naguras are used on the Asewedo to set the bevel and sharpen?

Thanks,
M

Ah the mysteries of Japanese Naturals...

Color is just one aspect to the stone. There are many other aspects that these stones go by and there is always the way they are used.

Hardness, cutting power, fineness, are all issues that need to be gone over with the seller to find the right stone for your uses.

I'm sure others will pop in to give clearer reasons, My brain is currently disconected from my fingers...

Hey, Mark.

They (eastern rocks) have my attention also. I can't say that alot of reading has produced much more understanding yet.

From what little I understand now, your observations about color being irrelevant seem to be true. Also, that individual variation in stones also make the mine and strata somewhat irrelevant also, though some tend to be better than others. Consistently, it seems that testing the individual rock is the only reliable measure of performance. This would seem to place a premium on rocks that are tested by a seller deemed trustworthy (by reputation), and who allows for a return if your blades(s) don't like the rock.

I'm too constrained by budget to gamble on buying a rock - especially a discounted rock, in hopes of getting a good rock. 'Seems you could dump a boatload of money & time into buying, testing, selling to try to get a good one.

The draw for me was a couple things - all related to smoothness. My experience is not extensive - done about 45-50 blades. What planted the Jnat seed/infection was a blade done on a high-end Asagi that seemed to defy ham-handed attempts to nick a face, yet gave unnaturally close shaves. There could be many fallacies in thinking this is all Jnat, but even with a fine blade (williams), it couldn't do this without a large contribution from the stone and the person driving the stone.

Probably the most controversial thing I was told by Mr. Yamashita (So), was that a good stone will have a positive affect on your honing skill. He described it as similar to the affect of driving a finely tuned sports car - actually improving your driving skills without much deliberate effort. That seems like a claim too good to be true, but his stature with Jnats makes me think he's right. Maybe this is simply gaining the tactile experience of what a stone/blade feels like when things are going as they should - allowing you to recognize when things do or don't go as they should on other stones.

Here's to wading through the eastern fog. I hope we both get smarter about it & get satisfying edges as a result.

I don't think the color is irrelevant - it's just not a tell-all.

The color something appears is based on it's composition. The composition of the hone affects how it cuts. While there may not always be a direct correlation between color and honing performance, knowing the color in addition to other factors (such as where it was mined, what strata, what the skin on it looks like, etc) can provide some more insight into how the hone might behave. Ultimately, the only way to know about a hone is to test it.

With the car analogy - if there was a relationship between the color and the trim packages available, the color would limit the possibilities on trim options. But knowing the year of manufacture, which engine it has, and any other related information will give you a BETTER guess. You still need to know the exact details to know for sure.

In regards to color, yes and no. I think there are generalizations that can be drawn, but they are not nearly as helpful as having the stone in your hand. As I was told a few times in Kyoto, the things that effect the way a hone works are usually too small to be seen. Trust of your source is the best way to select a stone, far more than names, stamps etc.


As for "one-stone-honing", your understanding of "grit" is misled, I believe. I wouldn't venture to guess as to the grit size of a botan, but the speed at which good Botan slurry takes off steel is somewhat comparable to a Naniwa 2-3K superstone. But that has nothing to do with GRIT, but everything to do with abrasive power.

I hope this helps.

Originally Posted by JimR

As for "one-stone-honing", your understanding of "grit" is misled, I believe. I wouldn't venture to guess as to the grit size of a botan, but the speed at which good Botan slurry takes off steel is somewhat comparable to a Naniwa 2-3K superstone. But that has nothing to do with GRIT, but everything to do with abrasive power.

I hope this helps.

Help? It's actually creating a bit more of the classic JNat Confusion

I've been thinking along the lines of Naguras having different "grits". I'm completely aware that natural stones cannot have a grit rating, so I'm using the word to create a simple relative comparison. In a PM, a member who's opinion I respect wrote "...the naguras Botan, Mejiro Koma have approximate grits of 8k,15k, 20k so they are..." It was that message which prompted this thread. I started this thread to determine which Naguras were used between the bevel (which I'll use my trusty Naniwa 1K to set) and the supposed "8k Botan".

Also polluting the issue are threads which describe the peculiarities of using Suita rocks. The Su can retain Nagura slurry, so they need to be washed thoroughly to remove all the slurry. The reasoning for this, according to the various threads I've read, is that I wouldn't want to ruin a fine finish with the scratch marks from a coarser Nagura's leftover slurry.

Your description of Naguras seems to contradict these opinions.

I'm still confused....

What I'd like to do is find a few reasonably-priced Naguras to try out using my Charnley as an Asewedo until I decide to take the expensive and time-consuming JNat plunge. My guess is that the CF can't be scratched by anything (short of global thermonuclear exchange) and should allow me to develop an opinion about slurry-honing. I've tried to ask this question in other threads with no success. The conversations get completely off track, and I learn everything except the thing I asked.

I'm sure of this: If I KNEW that I liked using Japanese methods, then I could justify spending on a fine JNat. Starting with Nagura honing might help me decide if I like it.

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

I started this thread to determine which Naguras were used between the bevel (which I'll use my trusty Naniwa 1K to set) and the supposed "8k Botan".

You can use botan, Mejiro, Koma as your progression before your final polisher. I personally do not use botan, only Mejiro an Koma and it works great for me. Using Botan after 1k should work, how fast it will remove the 1k scratches I do not know. For me I like to go to 5 or even 8k before I move to Jnats. I use naguras only when I have time to play with them, otherwise going straight to my finisher works just fine.

Also polluting the issue are threads which describe the peculiarities of using Suita rocks. The Su can retain Nagura slurry, so they need to be washed thoroughly to remove all the slurry. The reasoning for this, according to the various threads I've read, is that I wouldn't want to ruin a fine finish with the scratch marks from a coarser Nagura's leftover slurry.

There are suita stones without Su.
The whole contamination issue is easily avoidable by not purchasing a suita. A real good razor quality suita is not easy to find, while there is plenty of good quality tomae and namito stones.

I'm still confused....

A set of botan and mejiro will cost ~30 euro from a very good source (pm me if you want details), and you do not have to spend a ton to get good quality stone.

Originally Posted by mainaman

You can use botan, Mejiro, Koma as your progression before your final polisher. I personally do not use botan, only Mejiro an Koma and it works great for me. Using Botan after 1k should work, how fast it will remove the 1k scratches I do not know. For me I like to go to 5 or even 8k before I move to Jnats. I use naguras only when I have time to play with them, otherwise going straight to my finisher works just fine.

Well... part of the reason I'm considering JNats is that I do not particularly enjoy switching stones. My Naniwa 1K is built into its stand, which means that it must sit on the table, which requires a particular stroke, one that is difficult to develop because I never know if I'm going to honing while sitting at the table or standing at the kitchen counter near the sink. Once the 1K is done, I move to my BBW, which is thin and wants to be held on my hand or placed on top of my 1K (of course a there's a small towel between the two.) Then comes my Coti, which I like to use hand-held, and then my Charnley, which is in its big heavy box on the counter. So: four rocks; four different heights; four different elbow positions; four different strokes. There's four of everything, and as someone honing about a year, has made developing muscle memory quite challenging, and not always enjoyable.

Also, I've become acutely aware this year that stroke and technique is indeed everything, and find that my best honing is done handheld on a stone wide enough to circles and xstrokes. I have no such stone.

The idea that once a bevel is set I can use a single stone (preferably the size of my hand about 3-4 inches wide and 6-7 inches long with one straight side,) appeals to me. It wouldn't need to be a heavy stone (perhaps only a half-inch thick.) It also means I need only to develop one basic technique, rather than four. If I could find a JNat that allows me to swap slurries, I would be a golden honing god, and could bring all my stuff down to the kitchen without the mess and hassle of unpacking and arranging a whole box of rocks, towels and razors. I'd like to find a good one-stone multi-slurry solution. And it's a lot fun

I've already removed my big green monster from its box (some of you have read about my Big Charnley Oven Adventure), and though it's heavy I can can actually use it handheld. Grabbing some Naguras and going to town with slurries, eventually finishing on the CF with water, sounds like a pretty good plan until I become completely engrossed in Slurry Honing and pop for a perfect JNat. I've been thinking about (and reading about) a solution like this for months. But my questions about Naguras on my CF remain somewhat unanswered.

My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the various slurries work on JNats because the Asewedo is hard enough to not produce its own slurry while the Naguras are being used. That makes me think that the Naguras will work on my Charnley in the same manner. That thing is as hard as, well, a rock.

How far off base am I in my thinking?

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

Also, I've become acutely aware this year that stroke and technique is indeed everything, and find that my best honing is done handheld on a stone wide enough to circles and xstrokes. I have no such stone.

Curious as to how you figured that out with "no such stone" ? Naniwas come 20mm thick with no base from some vendors. Going from a 1k to a bbw and then to a coticule may be fine but IME having the option to go through a progression of synthetics is also expedient.

No romance in synthetics but they can be effective. Add a 5k and an 8k naniwa superstone to your arsenal before your coticule and you may be pleased with the results. I haven't opened the door on the j-nats yet so I can't speak to that but I'm glad you posted the questions. I read about them with interest and if the economy ever turns around I may find myself taking the plunge as well.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Curious as to how you figured that out with "no such stone" ? Naniwas come 20mm thick with no base from some vendors. Going from a 1k to a bbw and then to a coticule may be fine but IME having the option to go through a progression of synthetics is also expedient.

No romance in synthetics but they can be effective. Add a 5k and an 8k naniwa superstone to your arsenal before your coticule and you may be pleased with the results. I haven't opened the door on the j-nats yet so I can't speak to that but I'm glad you posted the questions. I read about them with interest and if the economy ever turns around I may find myself taking the plunge as well.

Thanks Jimmy, but I have no desire to go synthetic. Honing IMHO then becomes a math problem, and I don't like math. I like to feel the stone, so I'll stick to naturals.

As for how I figured that out without actually having one is fairly straightforward. My best honing comes from my Coti and BBW. My Coti is narrower than I'd like (40mm) but the right length (150mm) and my BBW is closer in width (50) but too short 125. So for me, the perfect is as I've described above. Oh, and I've used and enjoyed my Coti as a one-stone solution, but learning to read my Coti (which is very very slow) has been frustrating. Swapping known slurries (and watching these slurries for color changes) on a JNat might mitigate the difficulty of using my Coti. Oh, and I have HAD real bad.