Thread: Why are honing stones so expensive? Has our planet ran out of its resources?

Originally Posted by Snake

Maybe I should start another thread, and I hope the moderators feel free to move this wherever they think it'd fit better.

As usual, I have a question.

Why are natural stones (considered) superior to man made ones? After all one would think that a well managed manufacturing process would create a consistency unparalleled by nature.

Forgive my pedestrian question, I know nothing about the subject.

Why do people pay more for a natural ruby instead of a synthetic ruby of equal or greater quality?

Value is as much perception as it is hard measurable characteristics.

Originally Posted by Snake

Well, while I haven't seen it explicitly stated that way, it's apparent to me that there's a bias towards natural stones. I don't mean this in a bad way. Nobody would pay $300 or $400 for a Norton, but they will fall all over themselves to get to a coticule or some other stone with a royal pedigree.

Not unlike many of you, I'm a great fan of all things natural. I will take wood over plastic any day. Just as most here would take a quality old item (I hate the term 'antique'... makes me think of dusty stuff kept behind a glass) over a cheaper modern manufacture arguably inferior product.

Or even superior product. See classic cars.

Still, I'm an engineer, and I can't ignore certain things. A bulletproof vest can be made out of silk, yet kevlar is better because it's performance is consistent and does not depend on what a worm ate. Given a choice, I'd take a silk shirt over a kevlar one without a moment of doubt, but when it comes to stopping a bullet, I'm partial to the known qualities of kevlar.

Isn't silk a bit too elastic to be effective for this? Or is that just spidersilk?

Right now this site is ruled by hype as far as stones go.

I'd be willing to bet a good honer can get just as a good a result using a good synthetic as a Natural stone. Theoretically, a synthetic stone since it is consistent can be made to give the perfect result while you have to do some looking to find a natural to work well which is why naturals can be so expensive. Add to that the fact Japanese stones for instance are collected in Japan for aesthetics which can drive up prices to astronomical prices.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You know why diamonds are so expensive? it's because De Beers controls the entire world market and hoards them away in their vaults releasing so few the price is kept artificially high. If diamonds were released as they are mined they would lose most of their value. Maybe someone has a vault full of old Eschers, tens of thousands of them and they're waiting for just the right time to sell them off.

Actually the problem is who is going to go exploring for honing stones and develop a mine in the middle of nowhere and build roads and drag in equipment and electricity unless the deposit is big enough to be economically profitable which probably ain't gonna happen. Now if you had a mind to you could strike out on your own and probably find a source if you had the time and the money.

Just s FYI- I just got one of the "new Eschers" from timber tools,and While its not a real Escher,this thing works like crazy,I fully expected that it would be no big deal,but it puts an edge on my razors that I wasnt getting with the Norton8000,or my coti for that matter,In the ad ( I dont work for them) or the post that I got them from they said that the stones were getting "softer" than the ones first mined,whaterer that means to you rockhounds, and for less than $200 I got a 8in x 3 x3/4 in a box with a slurry stone-and that aint too bad,especally since it works. if the old Eschers are better still than maybe there worth it,but not for my money

Originally Posted by Gibbs

I've panned gold in the Black Hills of South Dakota and often find a lot of garnets and another "cousin" of garnet in the bottom of my pan. you can see them embedded into the rock in places. Since a Garnet is similar to a Ruby, it's hardness would be good for working steel. Makes me wonder what likes in the Black Hills of SD that may be of use for honing.

now i have a new mission this summer while fly fishing!

Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

Or even superior product. See classic cars.

Point taken... Well played

Isn't silk a bit too elastic to be effective for this? Or is that just spidersilk?

Elastic is a good thing to stop bullets. Actually the first bulletproof vest was made out of silk by a priest, who had the stones to actually demo it against a 38 special. Google it, it's a great story.

Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

Why do people pay more for a natural ruby instead of a synthetic ruby of equal or greater quality?

Value is as much perception as it is hard measurable characteristics.

Granted, and I understand that. I was hoping for a more objective assessment of what makes them better, not what makes them more desirable.

On a different vein, and with not attempt at pedantry, value is a concrete relation between cost and usability. In the example above of the Ferrari vs the Escort, the value is clearly on the side of the Escort; what we are looking at here is cost.

ChattersKing

Since man has begun to shave the whiskers off their chinny chin chin to suit their fair ladies, they have searched high and low for the right stone to execute the task with some level of comfort. The rich have always gotten the closest shaves with the least amount of irritation in regards to either their skin or their wives. The geologists working for the rich have kept a keen eye out for rock rich in hone material from South Africa to South America, from North America to Asia and Europe and Australia. The golden age
of razors and razor hones of the 19th century pretty much left no easily found stone unturned.

To seriously search and discover in this day, and to successfully mine a new source of hone material fine enough to pass the critical eye of this group of modern straight razor users would cost upwards of 20 million dollars, assuming you can pass all of the red tape now in place protecting the environment. To compare the cost of a Norton that is baked in an oven in up-state somewhere, to an ancient enclave of craftsmen risking their lives is dark cold caves is somewhat disingenuous, or naïve, or just pulling some ones chain.

Below are photos of a Shapton 30k that I bought at full retail about 5 years ago. There is your $400 Norton/Shapton (Norton does not make a 30k) along side a comparatively equal grit and typical or average natural $400 Japanese stone. The Shapton has 5mm of sharpening grit, or lets say 4mm of effective and useable lapped grit. The natural stone is 35mm thick with again about 32mm of useable stone by the time you get down to where it is about worn out. By my math the Shapton (the finest grit available currently) sells for $100 per millimeter while the equally fine grit Japanese stone will cost you per millimeter about $12.50.

The other stones below are just an inkling of some more exotic stones, and display some of the character many of the rarer stones possess along with some really unique sharpening qualities. Driving some of these stones for an avid user does in some ways mimic the thrill of a fine automobile. The speed, your heavy hand that feels like silk under the blade, the developing rhythm of a wet to dry stone, the sophisticated polish and blend of smells leave the initiated with wisps of other worlds or memories or dreams of grandfathers. Not everyone appreciates these subtleties but if you have not tried a really good natural and friendly stone, I would encourage you to borrow one, now that you can see that value wise, they are a better deal.
Peace, Alx

Originally Posted by Snake

Why are natural stones (considered) superior to man made ones?

I do not think that is true. It depends on who you ask, some people would swear they're superior, others would say that there isn't that much of a difference and perhaps that man made hones are better, but there certainly isn't a consensus.
In fact there is so many different natural stones and man made hones that any general statement based on such grouping alone is going to be false.

In my opinion the difference in money spent on one vs. the other is almost entirely based on hype and then supply/demand, and of course a purely psychological factors and romanticizing 'natural', rather than on actual performance.

In reality if 'natural' was automatically far superior than 'man made' we all will be hairy stinky critters walking in the woods, not sitting in front of computers talking about man made objects such as razors, shaving hair, and using cosmetics.

Originally Posted by alx

To compare the cost of a Norton that is baked in an oven in up-state somewhere, to an ancient enclave of craftsmen risking their lives is dark cold caves is somewhat disingenuous, or naïve, or just pulling some ones chain.

I bet if those ancient craftsmen had the technology to disperse, sort and bake the abrasives into a functionally equivalent hone they'd never had been risking their lives in some dark cold caves.
The question is if I take an old razor and spend several years using only 1500 grit sandpaper to clean it up and remove any pitting from the blade, then hone out the chips on the edge and make it shave ready using slow karasu without raising any slurry on it, would that make the razor worth say $100000 because I certainly could've done something else requiring the same level of skill and earned that money.

As far as comparing hones by thickness, the correct comparison should be per use. If a 10x thicker hone wears off 20x faster it is still 2x more expensive per use if they both have the same cost. Of course, considering that either option would last a lifetime such comparison is probably of very little value (unless you are prepared to slice the thicker stone into thinner ones and make use of that potential value).

As far as the feel (i.e. feedback) that is important. I switched from norton to naniwa superstones primarily because I like the feedback better. To me it was worth the 100% premium, but that doesn't make the end result from one superior to the other (since I can use either one reasonably well). If the only option for a particular feedback (on a gritlevel that has very few options like 30000) is finding a natural stone, than to somebody that may be worth huge overhead, but to somebody else who doesn't like that particular feedback it isn't. So there is nothing objective here.

And I'm yet to see the natural hone vendors start rating and charging for the smell when they characterize their hones. I personally like the earthy smell of my natural hones and they are all different, however I don't think the market has yet gotten to the point where this is a separate factor in the price. As far as I can tell it's just part of the romanticizing thing, and then the price can go whatever the buyer would pay for the fairy tale.

But rich people pay millions of dollars for scribbles on a piece of paper, or really ugly pieces of dirt/wood/stone/metal dug out of the ground... When one has a disposable income it is never just about function.

And all this certainly includes me - I have plenty of razors and hones with emotional value far exceeding their value as just shaving objects. I just don't see a reason to pretend that there's anything to it but a mind trick.