Thread: Flattening stone:3 1000 stones vs diamond plate

Originally Posted by BKratchmer

No, what is strange is you preaching this bizarre method of lapping while pretending you're asking a question. You also make a lot of incredible assumptions in order to make your point-- one of which is that razors require a honing surface that is less-flat than a plane blade. Perhaps, Sharpman, you would consider learning to hone a razor before acting as though you are familiar and competent with our methodology-- something which I would consider a common courtesy. I certainly would not have the audacity to come to site dedicated to straight razors to seek information about plane blades without showing at least some cursory interest in razors.

Another strange post. It seems like I would be telling people to
stop using diamond plates to flatten and start using the three stones
method instead. I'm tyring to compare the two methods and am asking for information. Some things I know myself so I comment on that.

In fact I tell that using a diamond flattening plate is more convenient.
I also say that while the three stone method will give perfect flattness
on the 1000 grit stones, you will lose this flatness once you use
it to flatten other stones with.

Show me where I say that a razor would need a less flat honing
surface compared to plane blades. You can't because I did not
ever say so. The only thing I said in this regard was that the the honing surface of a razor probably needs less flattening meaning the frequencey of flattening is probably less.

When you sharpen plane blades, it is much more difficult to use the whole stone. So you quickly end up with a concave stone which needs flattening often. Because many people sharpening plane blades use a jig, this concavity should be corrected as soon as possible.

I am guessing that with a razor this is not the case becaues you
can use the whole stone.

My topic is about flattening with diamond stones vs the three stone
method. Pro's and cons. It's about nothing else.

Sharpman

Okay. I don't think that a surface flat enough for straight razor use, wouldn't be enough for anything else. You are saying that your 3 stone method will give you "perfect" flatness, but it won't. Maybe it will be flatter than with a DMT or DGLP for the firt 2 strokes, but after that, it won't make a difference. We talk about waterstones, that dish after all. It won't even make a difference on ceramic stones either, but on waterstones, that level of flatness you are talking about, it totally overshoot. Because the flatter it is, it will loose its perfect flatness faster.

So in my opinion your 3 stone method has no advantages. You would never feel the difference between the two lapping methods, besides that yours is more expensive, and slower.

Originally Posted by jeness

Okay. I don't think that a surface flat enough for straight razor use, wouldn't be enough for anything else. You are saying that your 3 stone method will give you "perfect" flatness, but it won't. Maybe it will be flatter than with a DMT or DGLP for the firt 2 strokes, but after that, it won't make a difference. We talk about waterstones, that dish after all. It won't even make a difference on ceramic stones either, but on waterstones, that level of flatness you are talking about, it totally overshoot. Because the flatter it is, it will loose its perfect flatness faster.

So in my opinion your 3 stone method has no advantages. You would never feel the difference between the two lapping methods, besides that yours is more expensive, and slower.

Just to make sure I am not misunderstood. I am not saying sharpening
razors requires a less flat honing surface. I am guessing that since the
whole stone can be used whilst flattening razors, the honing surface
would require less flattening because(again guessing) it is inclinded to
stay flatter.

When you sharpen plane blades , usually the middle of the stone is
used more and therefore it becomes concave quickly requiring
the stone to be dressed more frequently compared to when sharpening
razors.

Ok, your point on the waterstone of 1000 grit being flatter initially but losing
this very fast(after a few strokes)is very good one that I brought up
earlier too.

This is what I was thinking. A finishing stone will require very little flattening
because it only polishes, so it dishes very little. So maybe the very flat 1000 grit stone would make a polishing stone flat before this same stone would lose its own flatness.

I am thinking this because I have used(as experiment) my 1000 grit naniwa
SS to flatten my 8000 grit SS. I noticed a lot of mud of the 8000, but almost
nothing of the 1000 grit. This made me think that a 1000 grit stone dishes
very little when flattening a polishing stone. Also the 1000 grit SS stone is
a very soft, muddy stone.

I have been told and have read that the shapton pro 1000 is a much harder
and significantly less dishing stone compared to the naniwa 1000 SS. So now I am thinking if my naniwa stone is dishing very little whilst flattening my naniwa polishing stone, then very probably the shapton pro will dish even
less whilst doing this same thing. Make sense?

I could just go and buy three shapton pros 1000 grit and test this method,
but because I am not rich, I thought why not ask the sharpening guru's
here(whom I respect very much!). Maybe they tried what I am thinking
and can tell me their experiences.

Sharpman

Additional info: I don't think it is important to mention that I
don't sharpen razors, but only plane blades. Flattening is
flattening as far as I know. The discussion is about the
pros and cons of using a diamond plate to flatten waterstones
vs the three stone method to do this same thing.

Whether a stone has dished because a razor or a plane blade
has been sharpened on it does not matter as far as I know.

So again, please lets keep the thread on the pros an cons
of flattening waterstones with diamond plates vs the three
stone method.

Thank you.

Sharpman

What we are trying to explain is that not one person Honing razors would use that method..

We don't need it on any level.. We don't dish stones, we barely touch the things and we simply re-fresh with a few quick laps of a Diamond plate/Lapping Stone and we are good to go... Even those of us that hone a ton of razors, most people on this forum hone maybe 1 razor a month if that they really would never use that system...

Even re-lapping the stones for flatness using a grid takes us a mere minute or two.. The initial lapping for flatness when we buy a new stone is the only chore, after that we rarely need to lap for flatness...

This is exactly what I have been pointing out all along, what you are sharpening and what we are sharpening are two totally different animals...

Which is exactly why most every one of your threads has the same discussion, which is why I explained that you need to make it quite clear that you are discussing Plane Blades ie: tools not Straight Razors as this will just keep happening...

And for one last time I don't know where you can up with the Diamond shedding thing but that has not been most of our experiences here on this forum ,,, The only problems people have had with Plates is Lapping without using enough water , to low a grit of stone that you are lapping, or a defective plate which is quite obvious...

Most Razor guys have one 1k stone and some don't even have that, there are a very few of us idiots that own more but honestly the thought of rubbing my Chosera against my King and my Norton or my Naniwa or Shapton to get all of them flat just really does not appeal to me in the least... Buying three stones that are all the same to lap them flat, would not be an option that I would choose either...


I don't know how else to word it and I apologize for coming on strong but you just don't seem to understand the differences between the two sharpening systems here...

let me illustrate


Plane Blades-------------------------Miles------------------------------Straight Razors

TBH I don't own a plane, have never sharpened one, and I don't have any interest in the topic. My thing is straight razors. As gssixgun points out, straight razors require a honing method specific to them that has no relationship to tool sharpening beyond utilizing some of the same hones. It is as if we were talking about ways of cooking soufflés and someone comes into the conversation with methods for pan frying steak. You are welcome on SRP but you might find a tool forum more rewarding.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

What we are trying to explain is that not one person Honing razors would use that method..

We don't need it on any level.. We don't dish stones, we barely touch the things and we simply re-fresh with a few quick laps of a Diamond plate/Lapping Stone and we are good to go... Even those of us that hone a ton of razors, most people on this forum hone maybe 1 razor a month if that they really would never use that system...

Even re-lapping the stones for flatness using a grid takes us a mere minute or two.. The initial lapping for flatness when we buy a new stone is the only chore, after that we rarely need to lap for flatness...

This is exactly what I have been pointing out all along, what you are sharpening and what we are sharpening are two totally different animals...

Which is exactly why most every one of your threads has the same discussion, which is why I explained that you need to make it quite clear that you are discussing Plane Blades ie: tools not Straight Razors as this will just keep happening...

And for one last time I don't know where you can up with the Diamond shedding thing but that has not been most of our experiences here on this forum ,,, The only problems people have had with Plates is Lapping without using enough water , to low a grit of stone that you are lapping, or a defective plate which is quite obvious...

Most Razor guys have one 1k stone and some don't even have that, there are a very few of us idiots that own more but honestly the thought of rubbing my Chosera against my King and my Norton or my Naniwa or Shapton to get all of them flat just really does not appeal to me in the least... Buying three stones that are all the same to lap them flat, would not be an option that I would choose either...


I don't know how else to word it and I apologize for coming on strong but you just don't seem to understand the differences between the two sharpening systems here...

let me illustrate


Plane Blades-------------------------Miles------------------------------Straight Razors

My original post:

With three stones one can make three(actually 6) really
flat surfaces. So you could use three 1000 grit stones
to flatten each other. Then one of these three stones
can be used to sharpen and the other 2 to flatten
the intermediate and the final polishing stone.

When the three stones are not flat anymore, you just
repeat rubbing them together to get them flat again.
Should not take long.

Why bother if one can just buy a diamond plate?

-Diamond plates are not superflat as far as I know.

-The diamond particles do shed and break and are
so hard they are likely to embed in the waterstones

So if you got a 8000 or even finer stone and you use
a diamond plate to flatten it, there is a (big?)chance
some particles of the plate will contaminate it and this
will effect the result.

-Diamonds are not forever. The plate can/will lose its
flattnes after some time.

###

Diamond pros:

-fast
-easy
-les messy

###

I am considering buying a diamond flattening plate. The atoma 400
seems a good choice. I also need a 1000 stone. I could just buy
3 1000 grit stones and(see above) not need the diamond flattening
plate.

I know, some are thinking ''interesting, why don't you try it''. I aint
rich man Maybe some here have experience with the three stone
technique. Also since there are many sharpening/hone addicts,
perfectionists I thought it would be a good idea to ASK.

Thanks.

Sharpman

Responses I got:

Sharpman, I see you can't be convinced. The diamond stones blow EVERYTHING away in any aspect. Do not believe us, go and buy your stones. Reading what you are writing, you never wanted to hear any opinions about diamond stones, you want to hear that your process is the best, and it owns diamond.

Perhaps, Sharpman, you would consider learning to hone a razor before acting as though you are familiar and competent with our methodology-- something which I would consider a common courtesy. I certainly would not have the audacity to come to site dedicated to straight razors to seek information about plane blades without showing at least some cursory interest in razors.

I don't know how else to word it and I apologize for coming on strong but you just don't seem to understand the differences between the two sharpening systems here...

Sharpman

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

TBH I don't own a plane, have never sharpened one, and I don't have any interest in the topic. My thing is straight razors. As gssixgun points out, straight razors require a honing method specific to them that has no relationship to tool sharpening beyond utilizing some of the same hones. It is as if we were talking about ways of cooking soufflés and someone comes into the conversation with methods for pan frying steak. You are welcome on SRP but you might find a tool forum more rewarding.

I am almost starting to doubt that.

Sharpman

Originally Posted by SharpMan

I am almost starting to doubt that.

Sharpman

Looking at your posting history I see that all of your posts are related to hones. Many of SRP's members have a great interest in the topic and I am one of them. The thing is, while some members may have a background in tool sharpening, the SRP knowledge base is applied to hones relative to straight razors. Honing those is worlds apart from the techniques used in honing plane blades, chisels and the like. I think this is where there is some static arising in the dialogue.

I'm not suggesting you leave, but only that you might be happier in some place like the ShaptonUSA forum where people using the same assortments of hones discuss honing the same instruments that you are honing. OTOH, if you acquire some straight razors, begin honing and shaving with them we then have some common ground to help each other out.

I ride mountain bikes and road bicycles. I don't go to a moto cross forum to discuss riding techniques, tires and rims or wheelbuilding. I go to bicycle forums where people are doing the same thing.

I've come to know Jimmy quite well over the last couple of years and we talk here a lot. If he says you're welcome here then you can safely assume that he means what he says...!

The problem we're getting here is that you are looking at lapping plates and the technique of lapping as someone who hones plane blades. We are looking at the same thing from the point of view of people who hone razors. Whilst the idea behind this (having flat hones to use) is the same, the reality is different.

You say yourself that your hones dish out really fast, that they need lapping often and so on... For us, the hones hardly dish at all as we use little or no pressure when honing and a 325 DMT makes a fine lapping plate. I've used mine on my Shaptons, Naniwas and 1k Chosera plus all my naturals. None of those stones have diamond embedded in them and the DMT has worked great.

We often find knife guys coming here looking for honing tips running into problems as well, because knife honing and razor honing are two totally different beasts. The same applies with plane blades - The techniques simply are not interchangeable.

I completely understand that you are looking to compare your three stone method to our DMT/DGLP method. The thing is though, that your method is suitable for what you want to do and our method works for us razor folk.

If you come here and ask a load of razor folks what they think of a plane blade technique, they're all going to tell you that its rubbish and no good. Thats not because it is actually a rubbish technique, but because it doesnt work from our point of view.

You're asking the right questions, but to the wrong audience IMO.

Its like asking a Formula 1 engineer about tire pressures for the Dakar Rally. He'll know all about tire pressure within his field, but not so much outside it. The same applies here: We can talk all day about lapping hones for razors, but we cant really help you with your plane blade techniques.

Again, you are welcome here, but you'll probably find a tool forum can help you out more.

Alright, gents. I think this thread has gone far enough and shown where it will continue to go. This thread is now closed.