Thread: I will visit Sanjyo next week (Iwasaki, Shigefusa, Yoshikane, Wakui etc)

On 14th and 15th I will drive to Sanjyo and visit some workshops there including Shigefusa, Iwasaki, Yoshida, Wakui.

If you have any questions (other than what hone they use) that I should ask them please reply to this thread.

Hello Dr. Naka

I would like to now if Iwasaki-san actually uses tatara born tamahagane or some other steel that is "in the spirit" of tamahagane. alx

Originally Posted by alx

Hello Dr. Naka

I would like to now if Iwasaki-san actually uses tatara born tamahagane or some other steel that is "in the spirit" of tamahagane. alx

What do you mean with "in the spirit" of tamahagane?

As a visitor to Sanjyo Seisakujyo I cannot make a doubtful question.
It will be a insult question.
But if you have any evidence of doubt please let me know.

I could make a question like this:
"What is the difference between Swedish steel and Tamahagane?"

I think any and all information that you can get regarding the steel used in the production of these razors, the methods, the honing, sizes, tradition, the personal information regarding the makers and anything you think of interest will be very well received.

I thank you for this gesture. It is much appreciated.

All the best,

Lynn

Hello Dr. Naka

Yes, I agree that direct questions are an impostion, and that in Japan an indirect question will normally elicit a response easier or more comfortably. The problem is the the answer given is often of the same depth as the question itself, ie. a vague question draws a vague answer.

Your suggested question, "What is the difference between Swedish steel and Tamahagane?" is very good. I would be very interested in his opinion and comparrison. Probably Hitachi Yasugi steels will come up also.

How about asking. Is your tamaganage born in Japan or another country?

This might open up a discussion that speaks of the process of making a tatara and how the resulting refined iron gets divided up and used. Or if other countries make true tamahagane or not.

There was a tatara made in Sausalito California about 15 years ago by a well known Miki blacksmith, it was small but they did produce a piece of kera. It was divided up into little pieces for each of the makers to have as a souvenir.

My interest in the tamahagane question arises because I have several blades made by a living blacksmith in Yoita, Ishiguro-san. Being that I was in a fortunate position, he told me directly that the few blades he actually forged himself in the late 50s, that were clearly maked tamahagane, were in actuality Swedish Blue paper steel, and that his use of the word tamahagane meant that his effort in using tradition hand hammered and forging techniques, and the use of the finest steel available at the time, the Swedish Blue, was his interpretation of "in the spirit of tamahagane".



I have read discussions on the subject that revolved around the actual quality of tamahagane as comparred to modern steels, and those involved agreed that although a romantic idea, the microcrystalline structure of true tatara born tamahagane does not actually come very close to that of the modern high carbon steels. If the tempering and hardening are equal, by reasoning a steel with a finer or more refined molecular structure will sharpen to a finer edge. They felt that if a blade is judged on performance that the modern steels won out easily.


I would understand if you felt it would be an imposition to breach the subject to Iwasaki-san, and thank you for your consideration. have a safe trip, Alx


P.S. Of course this has nothing to do with Mr. Iwasaki-san, but here is a snipit of a much longer posting from the JapaneseWoodworkingFourm, this comment made by So-san is very to the point. I hope he does not mind the paraphrase usage. PPS, the whole posting is very revealing.

""Like Dave (hi mate~~~) has beautifully explained about the tamahagane thing, this Meiji 45 ... is another reference to the legend/myth like thing. Basically all three blades are from early Showa period (definitely later than 1940). The style and the finish is too refined and clean for even Taisho period. I hope you are not dissapointed, because you shouldn't be. Tools from Meiji or Taisho, although nice to have as a collectible, they would basically be unusuable. Way too uneven in steel quality and too soft (because every tools were made of tamahagane). Like surfboards and surfing technique, tools kept evolving over the years, especially the quality of the steel, modern tools' cutting performance is much higher than even compared to the best of the best tools from the old days. THE most famous blacksmith Chiyozuru Korehide was ordered from his master Ishido Toshinaga not to use Tamahagane and use imported steels (Chiyozuru used Swedish steel imported from UK). Unlike the swords which is more of form of an art (some people, or many people? thinks swords are sharp and hard, but they are not. About 54 in HRC, which would be even softer than the worst tools made ever), tools are tested of their sharpness and toughness, so the situation is different from swords. Swords are said to be undoubtedly better the older, but the tools are "usually" the other way around (of course there are superb old tools as well especially when they are carbon steel tools).

The steel for the Fukusaburou blade is probably Shirogami 2 gou (White Steel #2), dad hasn't performed the spark test (a test that can identify the steel type to certain extent) so cannot be sure, but since it has the tamahagane stamp on it, it is probably not an alloy, and White Steel #1 is rarely used so most likely WS2. If it had "Tougou-Reigou" stamp on it, it will most likely be Aogami (Blue Steel). Tougou-Reigou stamp can be found almost as often as the Tamahagane stamp, on mid Shouwa plane blades. Again refering to it's legendary performance. "" alx

I am back.
It will take a bit time to translate about the visit.

I have several blades made by a living blacksmith in Yoita, Ishiguro-san.

Ishihuro K.K. is a seller and no more blacksmith.
You can see it here:
Åâ€�Ž®‰ïŽÃ� Â�ÃŽÂ�•

Hello Dr. Naka
Thank you for the photo of the Ishiguro shop. You are right, Ishiguro-Keijiro retired as a blacksmith in 1954. He told me that after the war he and his 3 brothers tried to continue as blacksmiths but it became apparent to them that 4 brothers were too many for the same kind of work. Keijiro-san and one of his brothers decided to become tool wholesalers, both of them are still doing this, the other two brothers gave up blacksmithing I think in the 1960s. Keijiro made his last blades in the early 1950s, here is a photo of him and his hammer,
and a couple of photos of blades that are stamped tamahagane (the top one by Ishiguro-san) but are not really made this original type steel which is rare in all but the most limited circles.

This will be my last post on this topic because I feel that I am guilty of taking the subject off topic of your trip to Sanjo. I am sorry if I offended anyone in even bringing up the subject of tamahagane. best regards, Alx

alk san

Thank you.

You did not gone off topic.
Through your post I realized that many want to know about tamahagane.
So I made many pictures of it at Iwasaki's workshop.
It will take time till I can write about my visit to Iwasaki-san.
I just wrote about Yoshida-san who makes kitchen knives:




It is not about razors and I am sorry if it is not adequate here.

I failed to embed a video here so I will make link to my blog.

http://hides-export.blogspot.com/