Thread: Shigefusa and his Whetstones

Iizuka-san,his wife,two sons, me

I visited Shigefusa Hamono on 15th. I talked with Iizuka-san 2.5 hrs about kitchen knife making etc.
I think one of big interest of my readers is what kind of whetstones he use in his workshop. I write the conclusion at first. There was no mysterious Jnat to make the wonderful finish. It is his craft which makes the wonderful finish and not the stone!

I asked what stones he uses for kasumi finish. He said "I use whetstones suitable to make the finish." It was to me that he did not care about mines or strata. It was more like if it works it's OK.

I asked him to if I am able to take pictures of his stones and he said please.I think to show you the pictures is much better than to explain by my bad English words so here you have it:


Shigefusa Workbench

You see many stones. Many synthetic stones too.(you can click on picture to enlarge)

More Stones above Workbench

Nagura
I asked Iizuka-san if he uses nagura and the answer was he do not need to use nagura because his knives are clad with jigane.

Japanese Natural Stone
I think this is the natural stone he uses most. Iizuka-san did not say the mine or starta to me but I got information from the source who sold it to him that it is a very good Ohira Renge Suita. It had a big and long toxic line and other toxic inclusions but Iizuka-san dug it out as you can see on the picture.
I felt with my fingers that this stone is medium in hardness and I think it will make very nice kasumi (haze finish) to jigane (soft steel).
It is also a stone which inexperienced customer would send back to the seller because of toxic lines.

I hope you like my visit report.

Wow great insight view into a great knifemakers workshop.
I would really like to learn more about kasumi finish, as I not only have a crush on Str8 Razors but on kitchen knives as well.
I see a lot of Shapton Glass Stones!

The great question:
Did you buy anything?

I use his knife already.

BTW I forgot to write about an important fact.

I did not see a single Jnat in his collection which had a maruka stamp.

I think there is a lesson here.
Do not get fooled by stamps and labels.

Dr. Naka お帰りなさい
Welcome back. Iizuka-san looks very contented, a sign of a love for his work and the family around him.
His answers to your questions about what stones he uses is actually a very good one because it forced you to look deeper into his craft and his shop with your own eyes to find the answers your self. You and I know that in Japan the traditional way for an apprentice to learn the craft under his master is to steal his secrets, this is the expected exchange of knowledge. The master is too busy with his own work to demonstrate or to lecture on the little things that are so important, so it is up to the student to observe with his eyes and ears. This type of learning requires more time but the lessons mean more in the end. The student is not stealing something that is locked up, but is right in front of him every day, the master judges the progress of the apprentice by his ability to gather knowledge and skills himself while at the same time keeping up with his ever demanding work load. Most workshops are busy 6 days a week but when an order needs to be filled Sunday is always an option too. A student has one more day to learn and practice.

I agree that the white stone is an Ohira suita. These can be very fast cutting even in the finer grits. The toxic lines like on that toishi are not cracks but instead are inclusions, the result of alternate water borne minerals the result of water seepage. Sometimes the minerals are harder than the steel being sharpened, sometimes not.

I am looking with interest at the stack of very thin stones laying horizonal on the shelf in the second photo. They look like they are down to 4-6mm thick. These were most likely very excellent stones that were hard to replace and were favorites at the bench. A professional shop would never buy new thin stones like those, and most likely all started out as very thick. These were not thrown out because this is an old fashion family run shop, and those stones might have sharpening qualities particular to a type of steel from the past, and an old knife might come in for a tune-up.

There is a chance that Iizuka-san does not even know which mines any of the stones came from in the first place. Like you imply, his craft is steel, not stone. During the Edo, Meiji and Taisho periods all the Kyoto stones went from miner to wholesaler to retailer to user, and most products not just toishi followed these routes. After WW2 with more mobility and small trucks or motorcycles with cargo capacity, the miners began to market the stones to the users themselves, users meaning craft shops. The miners had routes and lists of customers on the routes that they serviced. Maybe twice a year the miner would pull up to the shop with a selection of stones and he would help the craftperson try out and select the stones he needed for his progression. Very few mines pre 1960s stamped the stones with the mines name, it did not mean much. The proof was in the pudding, the stones ability to sharpen, thats all the crafts person cared about and he trusted the miner to provide the goods. The miners serviced barbers, carpenters, toolmakers, factories big and small.

Nice job and very good photos. I was in Sanjo myself two weeks ago, and I guess you went to Yoita. This is such a rich historical crafts area and much of it started with swords. Last years NHK historical series that is a year long was centered in this castle town of Yoita and Niigata in general. best of luck, Alx

His answers to your questions about what stones he uses is actually a very good one because it forced you to look deeper into his craft and his shop with your own eyes to find the answers your self. You and I know that in Japan the traditional way for to learn the craft under his master is to steal his secrets, this is the expected exchange of knowledge.

I think you are missing something.
I was there as invited guest and not an apprentice.

Iizuka san handled me with respect and not like an apprentice.

Hello Dr. Naka
Yes, I understand that you are not his apprentice, I just ment that his answer was vague.

"I asked what stones he uses for kasumi finish. He said "I use whetstones suitable to make the finish." It was to me that he did not care about mines or strata. It was more like if it works it's OK."

A vague answer requires extra effort to learn a deeper meaning. Do you agree? Alx

I do not think it is a vague answer.
It may look like a vague answer to foreigner who is not bilingual. But it is not.

Anyway Iizuka san handled me with many respect and answered all question as good as he could to me.

I think I understand the point of Alx. He may not be that far from the truth.
Of course DrNaka has been treated with a lot of respect, but I think what Alx wants to imply is that
even though you were invited as a guest you were not told/shown all secrets (if there were any, that is).

I have been invited to Opel, you know the car manufacturer.
I have been treated with great respect and have seen many things.
But of course, I didn´t see it all.

If I were to ask what kind of steel they used for their car bodies,
they would have told me "one that works good for us".
He may even tell me about the properties of the steel they used,
but they wouldn´t tell me exactly wich one it is.

That is the difference between treating someone with respect and respectfully explaining,
and really telling the secret. You were told what properties his stone has. But you were not given the means to reproduce it (the kasumi) yourself, were you?
I know, that wasn´t your point in asking him, but I think that is what Alx wanted to say.

If I am correct your point is:
This famous knife maker does not care about special high quality japanese naturals.
They have to perform. But you were not told how to tell wich ones will perform ok.
Or how to obtain the skill necesary for the Kasumi finish (how could he possibly tell you, right? )

Btw. I don´t see much of a point in high quality japanese naturals for kitchen knives myself.
If I want to go crazy on my Santoku or Yanagiba, I hit the Oohira.
Otherwise a 6-7.000 natural Suita is just perfect.
With razors on the other hand, it´s a different story

alx-san and Lesslemming-san

You both are totally wrong. You both write about mere assumption that Iizuka-san hide secrets to me.
Please write about facts and not assumption.
Have you been there when I visited Shigefusa workshop and know about facts?

I wrote at beginning that I talked with Iizuka-san 2.5hrs.
If you think logical you will know that there were talks off the records which I do not write here.

I am now retired but I worked as researcher in industry. So I do know excactly what I can write here and what is trade secret or what Iizuka-san would not want.

He does not want that I write A is better than B. Because he do not want to put B under the bus.

BTW Iizuka-san learned under Iwasaki-san how to make razors. He knows excactly what hones are suited for razors too.
He knows also that now some Jnats are sold by some vendors just by hype at an inflated price.

This famous knife maker does not care about special high quality japanese naturals.

Do not make such an insult to Iizuka-san. He does not use inflated by hype Japanese naturals but he uses high quality Japanese naturals.
Or are you one of these who thinks Japanese naturals sold by hype are high quality Japanese naturals?
He knows exactly what a high quality Japanese natural stone is. And he knows also what are high priced just by hype.

Originally Posted by DrNaka

alx-san and Lesslemming-san

You both are totally wrong. You both write about mere assumption that Iizuka-san hide secrets to me.
Please write about facts and not assumption.
Have you been there when I visited Shigefusa workshop and know about facts?

I wrote at beginning that I talked with Iizuka-san 2.5hrs.
If you think logical you will know that there were talks off the records which I do not write here.

I am now retired but I worked as researcher in industry. So I do know excactly what I can write here and what is trade secret or what Iizuka-san would not want.

He does not want that I write A is better than B. Because he do not want to put B under the bus.

BTW Iizuka-san learned under Iwasaki-san how to make razors. He knows excactly what hones are suited for razors too.
He knows also that now some Jnats are sold by some vendors just by hype at an inflated price.


Do not make such an insult to Iizuka-san. He does not use inflated by hype Japanese naturals but he uses high quality Japanese naturals.
Or are you one of these who thinks Japanese naturals sold by hype are high quality Japanese naturals?
He knows exactly what a high quality Japanese natural stone is. And he knows also what are high priced just by hype.

Thank you for your clarification DrNaka, and thank you for posting of your visit to Shigefusa Hamono and your conversation with Lizuka -san. A very interesting read for those of us who love hones, be they Japanese, natural or synthetic. If anyone has any more speculation to offer regarding the motives for Lizuka-san's conversation, or DrNaka's original post please do it by personal message. No point in going off topic within the thread. Thanks for your understanding.