Thread: Beginner honing question

I debated either going to the beginners forum or here. I feel as I would get more responses in the beginners forum, but I settled on where I would get fewer, but more informed. Let me know if you should stick to the beginners forum.

I got a little over a months worth of shaving in and about ten shaves with my current razor. Its shaving alright, but I feel it could be sharper. I'm new at this so I don't know. Now the bevel is deeper on one side of the blade then the other and just on one side even though its overall thicker on that side, it is thicker in some parts and thinner in others along the edge. Thats true for both sides. I would think the bevel should be even depth across the whole blade and the same depth on both sides of the blade.

So I just bought a Norton 4/8K. I figure I'll use the 4k to even out the bevels and finish it off with the 8K.

My question is, I've seen videos where they put a piece of electrical tape on the spine and I've seen it where they don't. The theory in not putting the tape is that the angle from placing the spine and edge on a flat surface dictates the angle your bevel will be and if you don't allow your spine to wear away at the same rate as your edge, your bevel will get shorter and shorter over time. On the other hand I've heard a short bevel is what you want, but it seems to me the deeper your bevel is the sharper your blade is. How deep should your bevel, visibly be? Finally the thing that has me doubting my reasoning most is how many people I've seen put the tape on the spine.

Also, I've heard you need to get a lapping stone and I've also heard of a slurry stone. A slurry stone I guess is to build a slurry to aid in honing, but I wonder if a slurry stone can function as a lapping stone, whos intent is to even out the hones surface? I'd rather get a slurry stone since its smaller and cheaper. Also if I end up getting a 120/1K stone, could I use the 120 to lap my 4k so each could level the other, same with 1k and 8k?

Tape is optional and changes the bevel angle by something like 0.2 degrees if I remember correctly so it will not affect the end result.
4/8k Norton is a great stone and will work great for you to learn honing.
Slurry stone is optional, slurry will speed up the honing, but you can definitely go without slurry too. If you are refreshing already honed edge you definitely can do so with water only. Just do 10 light x-strokes on the 8k side and test if it does not improve do another set of 10. It could also be beneficial to strop on CrO before leather and the shave. If the razor needs more work than what the 8k can do, run it on the 4k side 20 light strokes then back to the 8k side , strop test.

Hope this helps

Stefan

Originally Posted by Knife

I debated either going to the beginners forum or here. I feel as I would get more responses in the beginners forum, but I settled on where I would get fewer, but more informed. Let me know if you should stick to the beginners forum.

I got a little over a months worth of shaving in and about ten shaves with my current razor. Its shaving alright, but I feel it could be sharper. I'm new at this so I don't know. Now the bevel is deeper on one side of the blade then the other and just on one side even though its overall thicker on that side, it is thicker in some parts and thinner in others along the edge. Thats true for both sides. I would think the bevel should be even depth across the whole blade and the same depth on both sides of the blade.

So I just bought a Norton 4/8K. I figure I'll use the 4k to even out the bevels and finish it off with the 8K.

My question is, I've seen videos where they put a piece of electrical tape on the spine and I've seen it where they don't. The theory in not putting the tape is that the angle from placing the spine and edge on a flat surface dictates the angle your bevel will be and if you don't allow your spine to wear away at the same rate as your edge, your bevel will get shorter and shorter over time. On the other hand I've heard a short bevel is what you want, but it seems to me the deeper your bevel is the sharper your blade is. How deep should your bevel, visibly be? Finally the thing that has me doubting my reasoning most is how many people I've seen put the tape on the spine.

Also, I've heard you need to get a lapping stone and I've also heard of a slurry stone. A slurry stone I guess is to build a slurry to aid in honing, but I wonder if a slurry stone can function as a lapping stone, whos intent is to even out the hones surface? I'd rather get a slurry stone since its smaller and cheaper. Also if I end up getting a 120/1K stone, could I use the 120 to lap my 4k so each could level the other, same with 1k and 8k?

The thinner, thicker (wavy?) uneven appearance of the bevel probably has more to do with the grind than with honing and thus is something to be lived with as your honing can't correct that manufacturing defect. The unequal width of the bevels from one side of the blade to the other is a honing issue where more time/pressure was exerted on one side of the blade than on the other, and is more an appearance issue than anything else. So long as the bevels meet somewhere in the middle of the blade at that marvelously small, sharp acute angle which is the edge, you'll have a shaving edge.

good luck

I did a little research and apparently the surface of the razor is wavy and a deeper bevel creates exagerated contour lines. So a shorter bevel is desireable for that reason. But the same website goes against its thought process, by advising to produce a secondary bevel. So the side of the razor, a steap bevel and then a more acute bevel angle to bring it to the edge. This is acheived by multiple sessions of tape (with multiple tape) and no tape passes?

What grind is the razor that you have?
I am not following the tape description from that website , can you give a link please?

http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html

http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html

I have a full hollow, I think?

I have found that many TI razors have a wider bevel on the front side and a smaller one on the back. It seems that this is the way they are gound. I have honed tons of these both new and used for people and normally, I just reset the bevel using a 1K and follow up with the circle process. Sometimes if you have a used razor with a lot of flattening on both sides with the bevel wider on one side, you would set the bevel the same way and it would be corrected. It will not even out the width, but the edge will then behave properly and you can proceed with the honing process. I have not found the need to try to match the width of the bevels on both sides for the razor to perform well. Pretty straight forward. Thanks for the purdy pitures........lol. It is easy to over think some of this, particularly with the examples you have provided. I do however agree with a lot of what the article says, but, the biggest problem with the wedges we see is that there is significant flattening on both the spines and the bevels of these razors and typically the flattening is not the same on both sides. This creates the dilemma of whether you remove enough metal from both sides to try to get the edge to lay flat on the stone or try an alternative technique like a rolling X or exaggerated rolling X to create your bevel and then continue to use it with the rest of your honing. A simple layer or two of tape to steepen the angle of the bevel may only exaggerate the existing damage which will continue to show on the spine and a gazillion layers of tape may hamper the entire process. Honing is fun.......

Have fun.

I think a photo would be worth approximately 1000 words here.

Lynn, thank you greatly, that was good info. Unfortunately I'm too green to really understand most of what you said. And I wouldn't bother you by dissecting that paragraph into an absurd amount of questions. Chances are the answers would lead to only more questions. I'll just browse through the forum and pick things up little by little.

So just to get me started should I use tape or not?

Is a smaller bevel more desirable?

And can I use a small slurry stone in lieu of a diamond encrusted, very expensive lapping plate? Or just lap a 1K over a 8K to flatten each other?

Originally Posted by mainaman

Tape is optional and changes the bevel angle by something like 0.2 degrees if I remember correctly so it will not affect the end result.

That may be true, but as the razors edge is worked back and back, if the spine is perserved the whole time then that bevel will be significantly shorter in later years I would imagine. In other words when the razor is half its width, if the spine isn't hone away with the edge to keep that angle going, the bevels depth will be theoretically half its original depth. I don't know maybe thats good?