Thread: Method to test stone's finish?

Originally Posted by Vasilis

So, the only way to test unknown hones is under a microscope, and nothing else? (Yes, and the tongue trick)

I think the general concensus it no to the microscope (handy to watch up close how an unknown hone works the blade), some swear by the tongue for a basic general test of the stone and testing with a razor and shave test is the only sure-fire test.

I'm generally referring to the non escher-fine hones. The ones lower than 8k grit, maybe 1k-3k or 5k, that can't shave like the famous fine ones. The only thing we can rely on is a microscope? Hones have been used the last 5k+ years. And our feeling on our tongue? It depends on the grit we used for lapping it (the famous garnet based hones are exception). We should stop relying on someone else for a spectacular invention that can show us whatever we need to see. We need new ideas how to do it. I can't really think some new innovative method for doing this, but I hope I will, without the use of electricity and microscopes and whatnot. Anyone with ideas?

Sorry if this is done or not I just skimmed the last half of the thread That said this is PURELY a personal issue, only testing and familiarity will win the day.

Over the years of playing with many various stones for both my kitchen knives and my razors I've noticed a few things. Only experience with any one system is going to allow you to tell the difference between same grit score stones. When I started this so many years ago I only knew sharp and not sharp enough. With time and use on various stones, I already had a large collection of stones for my knives, I started to become aware of different degrees of sharp enough. Learning first on a Norton 4/8k and using this exclusivly for about a year, than moving onto different makers and grit levels I found that I really didn't like the two 30k stones I had access to on my face. Now both of these where synthetic stones and I had not moved to naturals yet. Once I did move to naturals and used them enough to get used to them I came to a realaliation... Grit levels on synthetic stone mattered not to me as far as razors where concerned. I would drag my fingernail across a natural stone and could decide if I was going to enjoy the shave off that stone. I've gone back to synthetic stones now and again to see if I can still notice the difference and yes they still shave differently and I just love the shave off a natural stone.

Some basics that I use for myself, if the grit is angular (usually synthetic) it goes to my kitchen knives. If the grit is rounded or pancaked in some way I will try it for razors. The shave off both these grit styles are very different and really is a personal issue, both get the job done in ways that would be classified as a comfortable shave. Both feel very different if you are aware of the feeling from each.

Testing by razor and use, hone your razors on everything you can get your hands on, and shave with them noting the difference and how you liked the feeling and experience. Even the honing experience needs to be taken into account. I had one stone I just loved the shave off of but hated using that stone so i got rid of it, to this day I couldn't tell you what it was lol but it was synthetic.

Ok off the soapbox

Originally Posted by Vasilis

I'm generally referring to the non escher-fine hones. The ones lower than 8k grit, maybe 1k-3k or 5k, that can't shave like the famous fine ones. The only thing we can rely on is a microscope? Hones have been used the last 5k+ years. And our feeling on our tongue? It depends on the grit we used for lapping it (the famous garnet based hones are exception). We should stop relying on someone else for a spectacular invention that can show us whatever we need to see. We need new ideas how to do it. I can't really think some new innovative method for doing this, but I hope I will, without the use of electricity and microscopes and whatnot. Anyone with ideas?

Not sure it really can, that has not already been done. Using a vintage system and testing in vintage ways... I couldn't think of something that hasn't already been tried. Remember they had ALLOT more time on their hands to study this stuff, the trick is finding those old tests. Unlike today with online passage of information, those old tests are in a ledger or book... somewhere or lost to the passing of time.

Trying to test with modern ideas using vintage equipment may or may not shine anything new or identifiable. When I try to over focus on a specific test (being dyslexic I tend to do this alot) I find I have overshot my original interests in the results I was looking for.

While I wouldn't bother with wanting to test stones the way the OP is wanting to do, I applaud them for thinking of it and hope you find what your looking for

Originally Posted by Vasilis

I'm generally referring to the non escher-fine hones. The ones lower than 8k grit, maybe 1k-3k or 5k, that can't shave like the famous fine ones. The only thing we can rely on is a microscope? Hones have been used the last 5k+ years. And our feeling on our tongue? It depends on the grit we used for lapping it (the famous garnet based hones are exception). We should stop relying on someone else for a spectacular invention that can show us whatever we need to see. We need new ideas how to do it. I can't really think some new innovative method for doing this, but I hope I will, without the use of electricity and microscopes and whatnot. Anyone with ideas?

With the lower grits, very little experience will get you where you can find a progression via touch or tongue. Not that I have ever tongued a stone mind you. More experience and you will probably be able to guestimate the actual grit to the numbers you mention above. With a disclaimer on one grit does not equal another grit. For a given "grit" the US number, the EU number and the japanese number will all be different. I dont know how to DL and view this handy PDF grit comparison:

Grit Comparison-07-23-09.pdf

Things get complicated when you get to very fine grits, fine enough where I think its not just cutting scratches, but actually burnishing the edge some, smoothing out any scratches. Speaking of which, makes me wonder if anyone has tried a flat steel plate and just burnished their straight on that and how it came out.

Burnishing is a very good method for a mirror like shine on steel, better that any hone if it's done correctly (for the authentic Japanese swords, professional polishers burnish some parts of the blade but not the edge) but I don't think it can make an edge finer after honing.

Originally Posted by jaswarb

I would like to determine if my HSB & CO OVB is adequate as a finisher. I have a Norton 8k and sometimes I will finish with a few strops on a crox paddle.

The inspiration for the original post was an effort to reduce the trial and error nature of settling on a stone to take my 8K honing one step further. It has become a moot point as I have one barber's hone which has succeeded surpassing my 8k results as measured by the shave test and several stones arriving just to play with. The most cogent discovery for me there is sharpness beyond a stropped 8k edge with my present skill level.

The stones which are on the way so exceed my present abilities the questions I had hoped to simplify have already been made moot.

Thanks for all the input.

AND I STILL AIN'T LICKED NO STONES!

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Burnishing is a very good method for a mirror like shine on steel, better that any hone if it's done correctly (for the authentic Japanese swords, professional polishers burnish some parts of the blade but not the edge) but I don't think it can make an edge finer after honing.

That is a very good point. It seems if there is something a bit more than just a more precise angle that kind of creates the comfort of the shave. Curiosity coming out.

Originally Posted by jaswarb

The inspiration for the original post was an effort to reduce the trial and error nature of settling on a stone to take my 8K honing one step further. It has become a moot point as I have one barber's hone which has succeeded surpassing my 8k results as measured by the shave test and several stones arriving just to play with. The most cogent discovery for me there is sharpness beyond a stropped 8k edge with my present skill level.

The stones which are on the way so exceed my present abilities the questions I had hoped to simplify have already been made moot.

Thanks for all the input.

AND I STILL AIN'T LICKED NO STONES!

Until you see them all there on the shelf. Start to wonder what all the fuss was about. Realize no-one is home. Forumites are on the computer and not there. "They will never know" is what you will be saying to yourself, in that darkened room, alone but with the stones. You will gain courage by rubbing them first with just the thumb, then a finger or two. Then you will try and arm, then a thigh and before you know you will be in a multi-stone makeout session and you wife will walk in.

You are creeping me out.