Bevel setting and speed vs grit

What live been honing on has been a norton 1k for bevel setting then a BBW/coti finishing on a LM.

I bought 2/5/8k shapton pro stones for my knives at work and they are really fast by comparison to the nortons I used to use for my knives, the 5k probably removes metal faster than my 1k norton, it will be covered in metal in a matter of 20 seconds with light pressure.

I was thinking in bevel setting your doing 95% of the metal removal you do in a honing session, so why would I even use my 1k norton when my 2k shapton will in theory get the job done 10 times faster with less strokes to potentially mess up.

Just so long as speed does not equal depth of the cuts...

What I mean is a hone that cuts deep into the metal is not as good for razors as one the cuts fast yet shallow...

So look close at the striations and at the very edge and as long as you not getting deep cuts or micro-serrations at the edge then yer fine

g

The scratch pattern is definitely finer than the 1k norton, but i didn't look for micro serration, I'll check for that next time I hone something with them.

I've never used the glass stones wouldn't they cut a similar depth to the pros being from the same company?

btw the pros are soo hard and take forever to lap out even the smallest dishing you cant see im gonna blow out a elbow lapping these one day haha.

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Originally Posted by justinA

What live been honing on has been a norton 1k for bevel setting then a BBW/coti finishing on a LM.

I bought 2/5/8k shapton pro stones for my knives at work and they are really fast by comparison to the nortons I used to use for my knives, the 5k probably removes metal faster than my 1k norton, it will be covered in metal in a matter of 20 seconds with light pressure.

I was thinking in bevel setting your doing 95% of the metal removal you do in a honing session, so why would I even use my 1k norton when my 2k shapton will in theory get the job done 10 times faster with less strokes to potentially mess up.

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+1 on gssixgun's comment.
A while back he commented that shapton hones "just work" no fuss....

I think you will find that:
The 2/5/8 sequence will get you a very good strop ready edge.
Adjusting that edge with a coti and finishing on a LM or any other
finisher is simply a matter of shave test discovered preferences.

The shapton hones are used by a number of folk here and their results are
reported to be as good as any.

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

+1 on gssixgun's comment.
A while back he commented that shapton hones "just work" no fuss....

I think you will find that:
The 2/5/8 sequence will get you a very good strop ready edge.
Adjusting that edge with a coti and finishing on a LM or any other
finisher is simply a matter of shave test discovered preferences.

The shapton hones are used by a number of folk here and their results are
reported to be as good as any.

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I just hadnt read much on the Pros other than people seem to like the glass stones better for razors Lynn being one of them, i got them for my knives first and razors second. The pros took me a little while to figure out for knives, you can feel when they start to dish way before you can see it which isn't as much of a problem for razors since you arnt using pressure or removing nearly as much metal, i like their feel a lot tho.

IIRC the one complaint about the pro series shapton is that they were softer than the glass series and wore/dished much more quickly. not sure if that was on here or one of the blade forums that people compared the 2. i just have the glass series so I'm useless at a comparison.

jim

Especially when honing straights there is no real issue with the Shapton Pros dishing, at all.
When speaking chisel- or extreme knive-sharpening terms they might dish faster than the glasstones, but we will hardly be able to tell the difference.

There is no obvious disadvantage of any of the Shapton stones. Use whatever you like better; Pro, GS... doesn't matter.
That being said, I prefer the Glasstones. Because the 30k is much more affordable :D

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I've never used the glass stones wouldn't they cut a similar depth to the pros being from the same company?

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Well, no. Different recipe, different stone altogether.
Although in the case of the Shapton pro and gs 2k they seem to have similar cutting strength

I had a full set of the Pros and gave them up for the Shapton Glass. For me, the glass just gave me better feedback and were more consistent when honing every day with them. A lot of people use the Pros and how they work for you is really what matters. The one thing my experience has taught me is that the Norton 1K is probably the most aggressive and abrasive bevel setter out there (Not taking into consideration 220 stones which I use more for repair than actual bevel setting). It can be quick, but you can pay the price on both spine and bevel wear. This is especially prevalent with new people using uneven pressure until they get more efficient. For me, the Naniwa Chosera 1K is still the ticket although a 2K is close enough to get the job done. Both are quick cutters and very reliable.

Have fun.

Also note that the metal swarf seen on the stone isn't equal to the metal amount that is removed. For example, if you hone for about one minute on a DMT 325, and one minute on a Shapton Pro 12k, than you will get what I mean. The shapton will be full of swarf, where the DMT will look almost clean, and the DMT is worlds faster than the 12k pro. A lot of very small metal filings look blacker than fewer bigger filings.

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Originally Posted by jeness

Also note that the metal swarf seen on the stone isn't equal to the metal amount that is removed. For example, if you hone for about one minute on a DMT 325, and one minute on a Shapton Pro 12k, than you will get what I mean. The shapton will be full of swarf, where the DMT will look almost clean, and the DMT is worlds faster than the 12k pro. A lot of very small metal filings look blacker than fewer bigger filings.

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This is actually a very good point. If speed is what you are after, the DMT 325 and DMT1200 are there for you. They are in my opinion, more abrasive than the Norton's. They will leave pretty deep scratch marks though and you have to be careful when using them as they will eat up a spine in a heartbeat if you don't use tape.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

This is actually a very good point. If speed is what you are after, the DMT 325 and DMT1200 are there for you. They are in my opinion, more abrasive than the Norton's. They will leave pretty deep scratch marks though and you have to be careful when using them as they will eat up a spine in a heartbeat if you don't use tape.

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That much speed is not what I'm looking for. I still haven't used the pros for any razors, but for my gyuto that i use at work which is HRC 62 it takes a lot longer to hone out tiny micro chips(which i rarely get) with the norton than with the pro, which is why i figured the pro would be a better bevel setter of my two options.


I want to point out I plan on getting a chosera 1k eventually but there are other things I plan on spending money on first so it may be a little while.

Oh, and thank you to everyone for the imput, never thought of anything like depth of cuts and micro serrations before, you guys are always really helpful.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I had a full set of the Pros and gave them up for the Shapton Glass. For me, the glass just gave me better feedback and were more consistent when honing every day with them. A lot of people use the Pros and how they work for you is really what matters. The one thing my experience has taught me is that the Norton 1K is probably the most aggressive and abrasive bevel setter out there (Not taking into consideration 220 stones which I use more for repair than actual bevel setting). It can be quick, but you can pay the price on both spine and bevel wear. This is especially prevalent with new people using uneven pressure until they get more efficient. For me, the Naniwa Chosera 1K is still the ticket although a 2K is close enough to get the job done. Both are quick cutters and very reliable.

Have fun.

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Chosera 1K all the way!

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Originally Posted by syslight

IIRC the one complaint about the pro series shapton is that they were softer than the glass series and wore/dished much more quickly. not sure if that was on here or one of the blade forums that people compared the 2. i just have the glass series so I'm useless at a comparison.

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I've got both & found I lapped my pros a lot less than the GS when used solely on razors. I would say the pros 'seem' harder but even within the one line there are variations e.g. the 1k pro is harder than the 1.5 k pro. There's a lot of relativity in razordom :)

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Originally Posted by justinA

That much speed is not what I'm looking for. I still haven't used the pros for any razors, but for my gyuto that i use at work which is HRC 62 it takes a lot longer to hone out tiny micro chips(which i rarely get) with the norton than with the pro, which is why i figured the pro would be a better bevel setter of my two options.


I want to point out I plan on getting a chosera 1k eventually but there are other things I plan on spending money on first so it may be a little while.

Oh, and thank you to everyone for the imput, never thought of anything like depth of cuts and micro serrations before, you guys are always really helpful.

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I really like the pros for hard razors & don't find them too aggressive on softer steel or maybe I just adapted to them. I think they may well cut a bit deeper than the GS but I find a light touch &/or fewer strokes remedies that, depending on the razor of course. I wanted something fast like DMT's but without the deep scratches. The Pro's do that for me. They are monsters with a diamond plate generated slurry, if you need speed but I find the best edges come from plain water. As much as I like the pros I always recommend the GS for newer users but as you already have & use them, give them a spin.
The 2k is quite an effective bevel setter but the 1.5k & 1k are useful as well depending on the edge damage ie if I can barely see a chip thru the loupe the 2k is fine, if there are bigger chips I'll drop to 1.5k. If that's too slow or chips are bigger again I'll use the 1k. I'll use the 320 grit pro on extreme cases mostly to kick start old wedges with nightmare bevels.
I considered the Chosera 1k but for a little more I was able to buy 2 lower grit pros & as a progression or multiple choice options that works really well for me.
BTW both my GS & Pros are J/market models so don't know exactly how or if they act differently to the export stones but according to the Japan-Tool website the GS stones for the home market are designed to work with Japanese steels & the export models were designed for Lie Nielsen's A2 Steel. The pros have a different formula as well but it was claimed to be based on climate rather than action. I haven't tested both versions of the Pro's to know if they act differently.

Ive been using the Shapton GS for bevel setting for years now, Untill they poop out and than I'll get Chosera...

From the sounds of the OP you sound like a cook? Are you going to be using your same stones for both knives and razors? That brings up some flat issues that would be addressed by the softness of the stones used. My kitchen knives are all above Rockwell 60, most in the 64 range, these knives eat stones fast. For that reason I started using 2 sets of stone and soon after put my razors onto all natural stones.

Norton are slower cutting and that is a great stone to learn on because it takes longer to mess up, fast cutters will kill and edge in one bad pass. So you have to balance out your skills to the stones you aquire. Not that buying great stones is only for experienced users, just that alot of what you pay for may not be noticed or appreciated. Like giving a 16 year old the keys to a classic roadster, sure you can drive it but the potential for an oops is hightened due to lack of experience with that tool.

I think moving from the Norton to the shapton pro line is a good step up, but don't jump on the stones with your best razor just yet. Work on some new finds and get used to how these new stones work for you.

Onimaru thanks for the info, with knives right before I move from one stone to the other I do this odd thing where I let the metal build up a little and use a much lighter stroke I've found it helps smooth out before moving up a grit. I don't think I'll be trying my trick with razors tho.

Dwarvenchef, yes I'm a sushi chef and most of my knives are quite hard, but I'm good at keeping them sharp with minor touch ups and not bashing them, I'm also a little OCD about keeping my stones flat and chambered. I'm collecting razors that are ok but not jems to learn these stonesstones on and to learn to restore.

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Originally Posted by justinA

Onimaru thanks for the info, with knives right before I move from one stone to the other I do this odd thing where I let the metal build up a little and use a much lighter stroke I've found it helps smooth out before moving up a grit. I don't think I'll be trying my trick with razors tho.

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No problemo.
So do you find the swarf build up trick smoothes the edge or the bevel polish. I do tend to clean the stone rather than hone over swarf with razors but I have minimal knife experience.

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Originally Posted by justinA

Onimaru thanks for the info, with knives right before I move from one stone to the other I do this odd thing where I let the metal build up a little and use a much lighter stroke I've found it helps smooth out before moving up a grit. I don't think I'll be trying my trick with razors tho.

Dwarvenchef, yes I'm a sushi chef and most of my knives are quite hard, but I'm good at keeping them sharp with minor touch ups and not bashing them, I'm also a little OCD about keeping my stones flat and chambered. I'm collecting razors that are ok but not jems to learn these stonesstones on and to learn to restore.

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Cool :) My knives are Japanese as well, yes keeping them and the stones in good shape will serve you well here :) Your understanding of edge geomitry will allow you to get the hang of this much faster, but it is quite different than sharpening a yanagi lol :p

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

No problemo.
So do you find the swarf build up trick smoothes the edge or the bevel polish. I do tend to clean the stone rather than hone over swarf with razors but I have minimal knife experience.

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I keep the stone very clean rinsing it regularly until just before I switch grits then I let the swarf build up taking off the excess by running the blade all the way off the end of the stone(essentially shoveling the excess onto my knife) every 5-10 seconds. Whenever I draw the blade past the end of the stone I rinse my knife. I find this method polishes te blade by keeping the swarf level high without it balling up and causing the knife to jump. The polish off the 5k can be close to the 8k with light enough strokes in this method IME

Pinned my first razor tonight, an antelope diamond steal full hollow. Today was also the first time I got to run through the whole set of Shaptons with a razor, and it went really well. I set the bevel on the 2k with some slurry, took a while to get it even but this had no sign of a bevel, next time I'll try the norton and see how it goes.

I did sets of 40 circles, and 20-40 x's, one set of 20 circles on the 5k followed by 40x's then 5 spine leading x's and 10 regular x's, went to the 8k and did 3 sets of 20 x's, went to the LM with moderate but not muddy slurry wiping the blade every 10 x's then adding a light sprits of water for 40 x's, 10 laps on .5 cromium oxide on webbing, 40 webbing and 80 leather.

I havent shaved with it other than a small patch of half day stubble on my chin with just water witch shaved easily. I always goof around and try the HHT but have never gotten anything but slight resistance, this razor was passing HHT-4 3/4 of the blade and HHT-3 for the front 1/4, kinda cool. I am putting absolutely no expectations on this razor just, if it shaves well awesome, if not, back to the hones.

post script: I like the semi hard yet smooth feel of the pros, whats weird is the 5k feels slicker than the 8k under the blade.

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Originally Posted by justinA

post script: I like the semi hard yet smooth feel of the pros, whats weird is the 5k feels slicker than the 8k under the blade.

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You've obviously used the stones a lot with knives. Maybe you're just finding your feet with them on razors ?
I remember a thread where guys noticed the 12k had some rough spots. I had noticed that with the 8k GS & the Pro also but seemed to clear up with a little lapping.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

You've obviously used the stones a lot with knives. Maybe you're just finding your feet with them on razors ?
I remember a thread where guys noticed the 12k had some rough spots. I had noticed that with the 8k GS & the Pro also but seemed to clear up with a little lapping.

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This is literally the first time I've used anything except the 2k on a razor I think it was just a good razor and I went paranoidly slow.
I don't mean there is a rough spot I mean my 8k has a smooth but resistant stroke, the 5k is smooth as glass like I'm using a very thin oil. If I didn't know I would think the 5k was the finisher it feels smoother than my select coticule or my LM, but the scratch pattern is distinctively coarser. It's very odd.

Also i am assuming I have the american formula since I got them from chefsknivestogo

I'd agree with that description of the 2 stones. I think the 8 may be slightly softer than the 5.
The 12 or in your case the 15k seems softer again but doesn't quite have the 'gummy' feel of the 8 tho the 12 does have a bit of 'bite' or resistance.