Thread: Finishing strokes: when, with what and how many?

Originally Posted by Gammaray

Burr or no burr - finishing with a few stropping laps certainly does no harm.

Actually No, I would not agree, nor would the Voerhaven papers, every Barber Hone maker, nor every Coticule, Thuringen, and Escher instruction sheet out there, and every Vintage Barber's manual... Now if it works for you go for it, but all those sources disagree.. They all show edge leading strokes and the Voerhaven papers explain why pretty well..

The only Hone I have found any advantge to a few stropping strokes then finishing with a edge leading is the 30k Shapton but still the final stroke is edge leading...

I think the finer the finisher there is less negative effect that stroping strokes may cause so experiment and see what your face tells you...

Also another thing that I have found is that the more attention that is paid to the honing and finishing routine the better the edge becomes regardless of the method ie: When people take the time to actually slow down pay attention and experiment and try to push the envelope they usually do... Unfortunately they sometimes think it was the new method or stone instead of the attention they paid to the task

[QUOTE=gssixgun;983123]Actually No, I would not agree, nor would the Voerhaven papers, every Barber Hone maker, nor every Coticule, Thuringen, and Escher instruction sheet out there, and every Vintage Barber's manual... Now if it works for you go for it, but all those sources disagree.. They all show edge leading strokes and the Voerhaven papers explain why pretty well..

I am not familiar with all the sources that you are citing, but I am sure they are credible. It is interesting to note that the Japanese blade masters use both a leading and stropping stroke (forward then back) for all grit levels. Their technique certainly has stood the test of time yielding some of the sharpest blades on earth. But both the barbers of old and the Japanese achieved an excellent edge through many varied techniques. As you have stated the attention to touch and consistency is so important to achieving this goal.

Today we have the benefit of SEM that has helped to remove some of the guess work and mysticism associated with sharpening. This has led to superb DE and other modern razors blades. It is interesting to note that the highly automated sharpening process for DE's grinds in the stropping direction rather than using the more aggressive edge leading geometry.

In fact, your commentary has made me think of an experiment. Could a razor be completely sharpened using ONLY stropping strokes? Perhaps I will try that sometime. I think it may be possible, but will no doubt take much longer than edge leading strokes.

[QUOTE=Gammaray;983136]

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Actually No, I would not agree, nor would the Voerhaven papers, every Barber Hone maker, nor every Coticule, Thuringen, and Escher instruction sheet out there, and every Vintage Barber's manual... Now if it works for you go for it, but all those sources disagree.. They all show edge leading strokes and the Voerhaven papers explain why pretty well..

I am not familiar with all the sources that you are citing, but I am sure they are credible. It is interesting to note that the Japanese blade masters use both a leading and stropping stroke (forward then back) for all grit levels. Their technique certainly has stood the test of time yielding some of the sharpest blades on earth. But both the barbers of old and the Japanese achieved an excellent edge through many varied techniques. As you have stated the attention to touch and consistency is so important to achieving this goal.

Today we have the benefit of SEM that has helped to remove some of the guess work and mysticism associated with sharpening. This has led to superb DE and other modern razors blades. It is interesting to note that the highly automated sharpening process for DE's grinds in the stropping direction rather than using the more aggressive edge leading geometry.

In fact, your commentary has made me think of an experiment. Could a razor be completely sharpened using ONLY stropping strokes? Perhaps I will try that sometime. I think it may be possible, but will no doubt take much longer than edge leading strokes.

The Japanese Honing method uses both and the Pressure change during it is pretty different then a western razor, as is the bevel
As to sharpening that way using only stropping stokes yes it is possible, you have to give it a try to see where the problems arise, which I am pretty sure you will find quite quickly in the edge Geometry..

I am really not so sure about the "More Agressive" statement in regards to Edge Leading, when I really want to cut metal doing restroration I don't use Edge Leading strokes I tend to use Circles and Japanese style strokes and a variation of the Japanese style ..

Originally Posted by Gammaray

Could a razor be completely sharpened using ONLY stropping strokes? Perhaps I will try that sometime.

For what it's worth, I hone with edge trailing strokes on most all occasions (without tapes, if that matters). I will sometimes use edge leading strokes on 1k stone.

As far as burr formation, I have a noticed that certain razors are more likely to form a burr than others. Some examples:
Filarmonica Sub-cero, 7/8, full hollow: has bevel so thin that it's almost invisible. With usual routine, I have never noticed a burr formation.
TI Silverwing 5/8, full hollow: has a bevel about 3/4 mm or so. Burr did not form above 1k stones.
Razor of unknown origin, 4/8, half hollow. Bevel of about 1 mm or so with softer steel. Burr formation is much more frequent and sometimes at higher grit stones.

For some razors, I have found that edge leading strokes tends to consistently reduce the occurrence of burr formation.

At the end of the day, they all shave fantastically well when honed with using almost all edge trailing strokes.
Whether you prefer it or not, is something you'd have to explore and find out for you own.

Cheers.

Well thinking about it, when we go to balsa with diamond paste/spray or chrom-ox we do trailing strokes. So I guess it is applicable to a rock. Like I said before, if it is working for you, that is all that is important.

Keeping in mind that the thread title is concerned with the actual finish strokes, coupled with the fact that the basic tenet here at SRP is "fewer is better" and "less is more", I am convinced that the finish stroke should be as delicate as possible and as few as necessary. For many of us, the finish stroke might be any combination of edge-leading/spine-leading strokes and hopefully it will be the right combination for best shave results.

The quest for the right combination is my driving force.

Jerry
____

Just had a flash-back about finish strokes. Quite awhile ago, gssixgun posted that he uses the 3-2-1 finish where he ends the honing with 3 edge-leading strokes followed by 2 spine-leading strokes followed by 1 edge-leading stroke.

I have used this finish method many times and have no complaints. I actually enjoy finishing 3-2-1. Perhaps Glen can fill in any blanks about the 3-2-1 finish since it is his idea.

Jerry
____

See post #21 Jerry


But if you want the whole story

Back at the 2009 NC meet up I was talking with Don from SRD and he said he was getting pretty good results from finishing with stropping strokes on his 30K Shapton.
When I got home I started messing with it and I finally came up with the 3-2-1 it seems to work very well to keep the harshness off the 30k finisher..

The Voerhaven Paper and micrographs were always in the back of my mind when working on this, which is why I kept experimenting until I had it with an edge leading last stroke..

Over the next year I tried this on just about every finisher you can name, but the only one that I saw an advantage from was the Shapton 30k.. Sometimes I try a 3-3-3 finish on the Naniwa 12k and I think it works but other times I think it is a waste of time...

The real trick is the time and attention to the edge, the more you mess with it the better you get it ain't Voodoo if you want to get good at honing then hone more...

Just to echo some great points already made.
Slow down & pay attention to what's happening at the edge.
Keep it delicate as the edge is a delicate thing.
Don't place faith in any one method as it will fail at some point on a razor that requires a variation. I've yet to find a need to use stropping strokes on a stone but when/if I need to I'll try it.

I don't have a finishing routine other than to try & make the edge as fine & as sharp as the particular steel will tolerate.
I rarely but sometimes finish on pastes or sprays. More often I use those before finishing on a fine stone & not for every razor. How many strokes I do on that fine stone is variable as is whether I use slurry, water or just dry
I use magnification a lot to see my edge & then if it cuts arm hair the way I like I will shave test it. Often the finishing happens during that shave test & that can simply be 3 dry X strokes on my finest finisher before a restrop & back to the shave. Sometimes I wish I did have a formula that worked for every razor but it might not be as much fun.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just to echo some great points already made.
.

Onimaru, that last post was an echo. haha

One tip that helps me is getting a good visual. I do not normally wear glasses, but If I do put on readers when honing then those last finishing strokes jump out with detail for me, especially the wave in front of the edge and wash-up of water over the blades edge with edge leading strokes which are both indicators of blade to stone contact. Alx