Thread: What Does it Mean, Taking an Edge too Far?

What prompted me to ask initially is that the 2nd shave after honing always seems better to me than the first. That was often the case too in the past when I used shavettes.

--james

Just don't do it man. I did once....

Now I am a broken man. I lost my family, my job, my soul. Now I wander the the earth searching for that perfect edge high.

Perhaps somebody that actually knows how to hone, Straight Razors, and how to take good High Mag pics can just do it

Are we talking about optical pictures? I don't think optical pictures will do the trick, there isn't enough resolution to see what's going on at the edge.

It's an easier test to just take two razors, sharpen one to the point that it's "overdone", and another one thats "perfectly done", and shave with both of them alternating days, properly stropping them with a bare strop.

As long as you can tolerate the first few shaves of the razor that's taken "too far". Maybe a test for someone who doesn't have sensitive skin.

It's pretty easy to prove, though proper stropping will make it so that it takes 2-4 months before both razors are pulling, maybe longer.

Let me take things back to the basics of Straight Razor honing,,, Straight Razors can get weak and fraglie edges because some (read above) "Grinds" actually allow the edge to "Flex" this allows the "Grit" to cut into the "Bevel" behind the Fin when too much pressure or to many laps are used, which can create "Fagile" edges
This can also be refered to as "Over-honing" or taking the "Edge to far" when talking about "Straight Razors" The "Terms" are very misleading (read above) as they have been tossed around so much in so many sharpening circles as to be somewhat useless now...

To the OP your probably stropping the edge in better as you procede, proper stropping will change the feel of the edge

Personally I prefer the term "Mis-Honed" because it actually is honed incorrectly regardless of why..That way we can figure out what was done and where the problem actually is within the honing process..

Several years ago on SRP the term Overhoned was tossed out near every time somebody said their razor wasn't shaving right.. It took many tests and tons of "Discussions" to change that, but it is possible to do just not as easy as many thought...

The term mis-honed seems much more appropriate. I am having trouble finding a historical discussion of overhoning, other than for a description of some older fine natural stones to be immune from "overhoning", presumably because they will create a quality edge even with their scratches all of the way to the very edge of a razor.

I have (not being a big frequenter of the forums until last year) never heard the term overhoned used for anything other than overshooting an edge, as the historical information that I've seen suggests that shavers never completely remove an edge. With a good enough (fine enough) stone, that's never a problem unless someone has poor technique or "mis hones" altering geometry.

Until today, I've never seen it used to describe improperly honing due to too much pressure (but that may be a product of tuning out most of the posts that have the word "overhoned" in the first place, especially in the era of cheap very fine abrasives that create nearly no foreign particles that need to be removed from an edge by anything other than light pressure on bare leather.

Maybe coming from a woodworking background causes a problem, i had assumed that anyone thinking at all about razors would understand that you can't flex them with a lot of pressure and expect a fine hone that barely does more than burnishing to actually get to the edge.

And FTR, the problems with sharpening appear in spades in woodworking, too. I have bought a LOT of used tools from people that were supposedly in use (think gouges and scrapers, I know you've done gun work), I have had exactly 1 that was properly honed. It's not that hard.
* set the geometry based on appropriate guidelines (obviously different for most knives, but for dogs and cats sake, the razor has the angle built into it)
* preserve the geometry while removing scratches
* make sure finest step actually gets all of the way to the edge and completely removes coarseness remaining at edge from prior steps
* rub on leather to remove anything undesirable that is hanging on the edge, and create smooth even wear/pushing/burnishing of the metal right at the edge.

I probably should never read any of these sharpening threads. So far, it's created discussions where I thought there was a difference in principle, but it really was only a difference in terms. And, seeded my brain with false notions of magical escher power or supreme keenness and softness at the same time, etc (the softness is there, keenness can be had elsewhere).

There are so many videos and discussions of sharpening now that I don't know how a beginner can't figure it out, unless they come here first and skip all of that.

(i still would like to see actual SEM pictures of the *edge* of the razor, and not the bevel - before and after stropping. Are there any of those?)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

...snip...
some (read above) "Grinds" actually allow the edge to "Flex" this allows the "Grit" to cut into the "Bevel" behind the Fin when too much pressure or to many laps are used, which can create "Fagile" edges
...snip....

Thanks for this, Glen. This is the first time it has sunk into my head what some mean about a "weak overhoned edge".

It makes perfect sense to me now...basically the blade flexes and allows the shoulder of the edge bevel to be cut with the net result of the thickness of the blade behind the edge getting ground away.

Am I correct that it would not be possible to achieve this result with any duration of honing as long as proper pressure is used?

Further it seems that this could result during any step of the honing process (i.e. on the 1000, or any other hone).

Thanks again.

I'll pull this image if I have it wrong, but are the bottom two illustrations what you mean? As in the green material in the bottom is ground away and no longer supports the apex?

Yes but that is over simplified

Yes at any grit, but as stated in the first post it is very easy to correct,as you switch grits,, This is what the 4/8 pryamid was actually designed to eliminate,, By switching the grits and sneaking up on the edge you eliminate the "overhoning aspect" you are polishing and sharpening at the same time..
Using Slurry probably accomplishes that exact same thing, from the minute dulling effect of the slurry then the sharpening effect as you thin it out (Not Proved)

The basic geometry and sharpening require for Straight Razors as Dave pointed out should be rather straight forward, (pun intended) you do have a built in angle, so basically you push the edge across an abrasive and voila' a sharp edge.. BUT it just doesn't seem to work like that, there are other things coming into play, one is the pressure and another is the smooth part and to a lesser extent the shape of the edge (smiling blades change things)..

The simpliest honing is actually a heavy near wedge -IF- the geometry is right they do simply hone as you would expect, unfortunatly the geometry is rarely right so they become bears to hone

When I first joined SRP (please go look) most every honing issue in this forum was answered with either "Strop it again" or "You Over Honed it"
It took a ton of work from quite a few people to push the onus of correct honing to the bevel and not the finisher...Once that was done and more people began to get the "Honing" down, the "Overhoning" talk began to disappear..

Once you learn to relax after the bevel set and ease into the finishing stages then taking an edge to far should never be a problem.. and even if you do it is easy to fix..

What the OP was describing is probably just too much edge for him and his face, as he learns to strop better and better he will adjust that edge to his face.. As he gets better and better with shaving and adjusting pressure and angle the edge will also magically feel better Also people tend to move toward the razors that feel better on their face.. Everytime a razor doesn't do quite right it isn't always the razors fault, but yes you can create a fagile edge by Mis-Honing the blade

(if you wanted to go really advanced we could discuss my thoughts about why some stones work better for some steels)