Thread: What Does it Mean, Taking an Edge too Far?

It's always been my assumption that someone knew to honing is much more likely to under hone a razor (moving to higher grits too early). I think the fear of over honing is greatly exaggerated, and in some cases can be the culprit of moving to higher grits too early.

Originally Posted by xMackx

It's always been my assumption that someone knew to honing is much more likely to under hone a razor (moving to higher grits too early). I think the fear of over honing is greatly exaggerated, and in some cases can be the culprit of moving to higher grits too early.

This is interesting and consistent with what a number of people have advised me.

Thanks.

--james

Originally Posted by unit

I'll pull this image if I have it wrong, but are the bottom two illustrations what you mean? As in the green material in the bottom is ground away and no longer supports the apex?

Where's the fin?

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Where's the fin?

I dunno, all I see are two bicycle seats and a Phillips screwdriver head.

Great pic which brings to mind, Not to hijack this thread, I would think that if this edge was not polished that it would make the shave harsh or would this shave angle be to shallow. Lowest exp if the hone in the pic what the surface of your skin.

Glen I read your blog a little while ago. I'm new to hones but would like to hear your thoughts on the diffs between the w&b and Friodur's and why?
Alex

Originally Posted by kalanyon

Great pic which brings to mind, Not to hijack this thread, I would think that if this edge was not polished that it would make the shave harsh or would this shave angle be to shallow. Lowest exp if the hone in the pic what the surface of your skin.

I would surmise that "it depends" (and admittedly this drawing is pretty simplified)...but for the sake of simplicity, lets play...

If the honing continued until the bevels were polished all the way to the edge (or apex), the result would be a very sharp edge that is VERY delicate because the effective edge bevel angle would be much lower...giving the result of minimal support behind the apex.

If the honing stopped as shown in the bottom drawing and only the green material was removed, the resulting edge would not be polished (at least not by the honing efforts depicted in the drawing), it would not be made any sharper by the efforts depicted, and it would be weakened, but not to the extent of the example in the paragraph above.

The result in reality would probably be more like a convex shaped bevel (as a result of honing pressures being varied all over the place by inconsistent honing technique) with an effective apex angle on par with the geometry of the razor (therefore sharp) but ample shoulder material removed causing weakening.

This whole discussion sort of illustrates the importance of magnification in conjunction with a thorough shave test....at least to this novice

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The term and it's brother "Over Honed" have been so mis-used that thay no longer mean anything...

To put it as simply as possible,,, I'll give you some numbers (not mine)

The edge will start to slice through hair at about .50 Microns (we do that at 1k) and depending on the the Grind, Geometry and Steel a Straight razor can get down to about .38 Microns.. that's it, period you get to mess with about .12 Microns of metal between 1k and whatever K

As one person has put it on here "I can hone just fine, knowing when to stop is my problem" I always liked that saying
longer...

Glen, are you saying the actual cutting EDGE begins at .50 microns and the edge is only physically capable of .38? Or is beyond .38 is too frail?
If so, it it possible to go too far on the 1k ? The reason I ask is I spend most of my time there.

What Im trying to say is, is this the mythical "too sharp=harsh" scenario?

My edges are consistently very sharp, sometimes harsh, but mostly short lived.
I hope im not stroking them to death!

\-/ .38 microns is good and \/ under .38 is bad?

Pardon my repetition, just making sure I understand fully.

Eric.

Eric that is exactly what Voerhaven was saying,,, His investigations into razors edges, really put the light on for me when it comes to the technicalities of the edges...
Keep in mind honestly this all really means nothing in the grand scheme of things, the razor either shaves close and comfortable or it doesn't.. These discussions sometime do help point out problems and logic behind what we do..

When we all did those experimemts with the 1k shaves, and slowly brought the edges into spec as we worked our way up in grit it pretty much backed up what he forund under the Microscopes too...

The 1k can rip an edge apart and cause actual burrs if they are used incorrectly, but once that bevel is set and all the rough parts are smoothed out we know we can actually get a shave maybe not as smooth as we want but we can shave...

What I found as a surprise was that there was so little real difference between the spot where the edge starts to cut hair and what we consider to be maxed out.. Also Voerhaven said about .38 Microns was where the edge could go, many might not even be able to hit that what he was saying that that is as far as it can go there isn't any more and that limit is determined by the steel and the grind..

Very nice explanation.

Alright, Im going to try a new "less is more" approach and see if that helps.
Thanks Glen.

Eric.